Fly Swaps Gone Bad

[DLoop]

I returned from an extended vacation yesterday expecting to finally receive some flies from the small bead head fly swap that was supposed to end about a month and a half ago. Nope. Still nada.

This was the first swap I participated in and I admit I was a little excited about it in the beginning. I got my flies in ahead of time, threw in a few extra bucks for return postage. Then things started to go wrong.

Old Man said it. When fly swaps go bad, they go REALLY BAD.

I have been publicly quiet about my frustration with this swap up to this point. OK, so a number of folks that committed to tie flies failed to do so. I don't understand why someone would do his unless, of course, some family or career emergency prevented it.

But in this case, I think there is also sufficient responsibility for this swap going bad by the swap organizer as well: lost addresses, untimely communication or none for weeks, little follow-thru. While it is very noble to volunteer to run a fly swap if you run it well, but running one poorly is just….irresponsible.

I'm sorry, but this swap has been a disappointing experience for me. OK, so maybe this swap is just a silly-little-thing when put into perspective of other world events, but it will make me consider more often that some folks here do not honor their commitments.

[Dan Reynolds]

Ya...but workin sucks and we go back for more every week.

Shake it off and start up one, give it a new twist and show how it should be done.

:dunno

[BOBLAWLESS]

It's harder than you think being the swapenmeister. I've handled a couple and I always swear that will be my last.
It's thankless.
Some guys send in less than they should.
Guys are late.
No money for return postage.
No suitable package.

But the last one I did had some beautiful flies in it and I had fun declaring the Washington State Champion (talk about self importance!). I saw some really good tyers do their thing.

Swaps are good--I've been in half a dozen or more and never regretted much and I have some dy-no-mite flies in my boxes as a result.

Maybe we should punish those who screw up. No honoring your committment you go on a list for a year or two. But I would hate to see the swaps stop. Your negative comments, while just no doubt, tend to push us in that direction. Don't know what to do really.

Bob, the :dunno

[BOBLAWLESS]

No message

[BOBLAWLESS]

No message intended

[mike doughty]

a lot more turn out good then bad. i've only been in 4 or 5, but have always gotten all my flies on time. the good out way the bad.

[Bob Triggs]

Without making excuses for someone else, maybe it's just summer and vacation time, outdoors season etc. Seems like this happens to us here and there with the swaps. But generally it's been a good thing. I have participated in a few swaps and it has been great for me; some nice flies and some new patterns to try fishing and to learn to tie myself. Once I mail those things out I try to forget about them and just let what happens happen.

I can understand your frustration here though.

[Dipsnort]

I'm not a tier, and have never participated in a swap, but I feel compelled to respond anyway. I think you have every right to be frustrated, DLoop!

Poor communication, irresponsibility, and failure to live up to committments drive me nutzo! :rofl

[pwoens]

yep....some good some bad.

I have been the moderator on a few swaps and for the most part everything has gone well. I have received everything from top notch excellent ties, to some ties that were atleast 30 years old with rusted hooks and not a single one matched any of the others sent from the same person.

As a moderator its difficult to keep up sometimes cause you are waiting on responses from others that havent sent theres for whatever reason...receiving hate mail for not sending them out on time, ect.... Its tough. But I do feel that if you are going to commit to a swap, you better commit and tie em that night so you dont get surprised a week before the deadline.

~Patrick ><>

Faith is nothing until it is everything!

[Roper]

As the swapmeister you get to set the rules. Those that sign up either comply or get left out. If someone misses the drop dead date and his flies show up late, send them back and tough stuff. Those that show up on time, sort them out and send back their flies for those that don't show. Or, keep the extras for the cheapskates that don't send return postage...whatever, you're the boss.

Those that comply will appreciate the quick no-bullshit turnaround.

It's the old addage...you get back what you give out.

Roper,

Life goes on, enjoy it...

[riverdog]

Thanks for bringing this up. This has been eating away at me for a while. I considered a similar post, but it probably would have gotten me kicked off this board.

I signed up for a swap and promptly screwed up the due date in my head. When I checked the board to verify the date, I discovered that my flies were due the next day! I stayed up until the wee hours completing my flies, and sent them Priority Mail the next day.

And waited. And waited. And waited.

The swapmaster posted a message saying he’s been delayed, lots of flies had not come it, etc. Those who had sent in flies suggested that the swapmaster send out what he had received and call it good. He even posted a message saying he was going to the post office the next day.

So I waited. And waited. And waited……………..no flies.

I emailed the swapmaster, asking what was up. No response.

Meanwhile, I noted that the swapmaster was involved in other swaps…and getting flak for being late sending his flies.

I p.m.’d the swapmaster, asking what was up again, and got no response for nearly two weeks. Still no communication, but I did receive some flies in the mail, FOUR MONTHS after the swap started. The flies were an odd assortment—some pairs and a lot of singles. Not what was promised. I wondered if all the participants had to hound him, or if I got skipped somehow, and he just threw together what he could scrape together.

Since then, I’ve really soured on the fly swaps. I’ve refrained from joining a couple that REALLY sounded good.

My take is that if you can’t deliver, be realistic and DON’T SIGN UP. Potential swapmasters—no one said it would be easy. But if you throw your hat in—you’re in, for better or worse.

Although it sounds harsh and maybe against the spirit of this board, those who don’t deliver should be BANNED from swaps, absent a good excuse as judged by the swapmaster.

Communication is the key. It absolutely sucks to be hangin’ out there wondering when something might happen. I’ve seen some great examples of the communication that makes a fly swap successful.

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest.

Riverdog
:beathead :beathead :dunno :professor

[Kent Lufkin]

I've been in some swaps that went wrong and have had lots of opportunity to think about what caused them to derail. OTOH, I've hosted three swaps in the past year and all have gone off as promised at the announced deadline. Heck, the damsel swap I recently hosted even had 100% participation with no drop-outs.

I believe that the responsibility for a swap's success or failure rests squarely on the swapmeister's shoulders. IMHO the swapmeister has to be up front and firm in stating when the swap ends; how many tiers will be allowed to participate; what the consequences are for being late; constantly remind, nag and cajole any slow starters; and to regularly post updates that bring the swap topic back to the top of the list in the forum.

He also has to bite the bullet and close the swap when he said it would close, even if there are a couple of stragglers - UNLESS the other participants are OK with extending the deadline by a few days (NOT weeks.)

In short, if you're not ready to accept the responsibility of being a swapmeister, don't volunteer to host a swap. Otherwise, that swap has a better than average chance of failure.

But swap participants have obligations as well.

Don't sign up unless you have every intention and opportunity to complete your flies. Signing up for a swap even though you know you'll be away on a 3 week vacation, starting a new job, studying for finals or can't afford tying materials comes under the heading of 'irresponsible' in my book.

Contact the swapmeister as soon as possible if unforseen circumstances require you to drop out. Shit happens and it's OK when/if it forces you to bail out. Just don't wait until the last minute to pull the plug.

Don't ask to postpone the deadline by days or weeks. Those participants who turned their flies in on time shouldn't be penalized by those who blew off the deadline.

Here's a few random thoughts about swap etiquette.

Always include a pre-stamped, self-addressed envelope or label with your flies. What you want to pack them in is your business, but expecting the swapmeister to provide an envelope, address it, AND pay postage out of his pocket is way over the top. BTW, by providing a SSA with the correct postage already attached, there's no need to send Lawless his couple-dollar 'handling fee' as well :-D

Always toe-tag your flies. IMHO, the ideal toe tag is about 3/8" x 2" or 3" - NOT 2" x 4" or 3" x 5". All it needs is your name and the name of your fly. If you want to include tying instructions that's fine, but not everyone has room for a large sheet of paper in the little box and envelope they get back from the swap. It's a better idea to post that information in the Gallery.

Always make sure that the name on your toe tags and on your SSA are the same. I can't tell you what a pain it is to try and match up someone's toe tag showing their screen name with an envelope showing their real name. It doesn't matter to me if you use one or the other or both, but DO try to be consistent.

Aways send one or two (or four or five!) extra flies or variations on your pattern for the Swapmeister as a courtesy for his effort in putting on the swap. It ain't rocket surgery, but dividing up the flies and making sure everyone gets what's coming to them takes some effort and that effort should be rewarded.

Last, most of the swaps I can remember that have gone bad were late-spring/early summer ones. Winter and early spring weather forces most guys to tie flies instead of going out fishing, so chances are a winter swap has a better shot at getting everyone on board by the deadline.

[andrew]

Thus far I've joined 6 swaps with 100% satisfaction. For those of you who have been burned I'd give it another shot...plenty of "good-guys/tyers" out there!

Thanks for all of the comments/tips on what makes a 'good' swapmaster...hopefully I don't piss people off with the first one I'm hosting!

"Tube Fly Swap" due this FRIDAY! :thumb

Andrew

[Old Man]

I also entered that swap. But you know that the main guy in charge kept reminding everybody about the due date. I didn't want any in return but he asked for my addreass and I sent it to him but no flies. I know a few that also entered into it but just didn't feel like doing it. Their Bad.x(

But I've done a few but no more as I now have to many flies to waste in the trees,on the rocks,in fishes lips,in my ear(sloppy casting).

Jim:beathead

[Stephen Rice]

I was in that swap too. I admit I did send mine in late, but at least I sent them. and I haven't heard anything back yet. it was due back in June I think?? what's up Swapmeister. you know who you are come on man... I was pretty excited I was going to get a fly from Old man.

[Jerry Daschofsky]

I've done alot of swaps, more then I can count that I've particpated in, have hosted well over 30. I've only had maybe a handful end on time. I've heard every excuse in the book. I also do "countdown" emails to those who haven't sent them in yet. Some come to the final day saying "I just haven't had time". Well, when you think about it, if you have a dozen to tie. If you tied ONE a DAY before you went to bed, you'd have them done in just under two weeks. If you sat down for an hour or two (depending on your tying skills) you could have them all popped off at once. But too many just forget, and put it on a backburner (who hasn't). It's partially the swapmeister, but it's an even between swapmeister and particpant. Participant should bow out if they think they can't do it. A month overdue just isn't acceptable, though I've had swaps run that long. But I've ALWAYS asked for consensus with other tyers FIRST before just shutting them off. If they say "ok, we'll wait" then I'll give them time. But one extension is IT!!! One thing is though, how much time from startup until flies delivered was allowed? I've found you need at LEAST one month from time of posting to date of deliver to the swapmeister.

Funniest thing of all. My worse offender was the board owner of a board I no longer frequent. Was late by a good month (and of course the others said OK because of who it was). Then, since he said he was going to be late by that much, two other guys decided to take their time too.

I'm not really worried, nor ever was, about toe tags. Depends on the system you work it. My first thing to do is sort the flies when I get ALL the flies. I take the pic and document who's flies are who's. Then post the pic so everyone knows which fly belongs to who.

Talking about swaps. I'm involved in two right now. Luckily, I'm just a participant. But my flies have DISAPPEARED! So I have a package of Dee Flies floating around in LaLa Land. I'm going to have to bite the bullet and retie them (ughhhhhhhh). This is when it really sucks.

[Old Man]

I'll be a name dropper. It is Madison_Angler. He seems to have disappeared,not to be found.

jim

[BOBLAWLESS]

Fortuna:

Let's set the record straight on that last swap which I hosted. It was short of the number of flies needed to make things come out right. I dug into my own collection to make up the difference.

Some guys sent no "handling fees" or even postage for that matter. Again, I hit my own wallet.

To top it all off, my name is drug through the mud as some sort of scoundrel who charges exhorbitant handling fees. Those fees were set by McRowdy, long ago, before you joined this board, to cover those who didn't pay and if there was a buck or two left over for the swapmeister, then so be it. The guy has to sort everything out and then go to the post office, wait in line, and deal with one of the government's high and mighties. A drag to say the least.

But to denigrate me for what I did seems most unjust and it will be the last chance anyone ever gets as my days a swapmeister are forever over.

Bob, the Ain't this sumptin':reallymad

[Kent Lufkin]

Kinda sensitive today aren't we? Reminds me of the immortal Bard: "The lady doth protest too much methinks."

[BOBLAWLESS]

Well. I'm happy about this post as it gives me a chance to vent.

"Am I befouled by mine own friend or a friend of mine own's friend?"

Bob, the Disappointed:hmmm

[Dan Soltau]

Sorry guys, i just picked up more stamps today. I always check that i have the right adresses though. I keep on thinking that i am going to get flies but they never come. So they should be in your box by the weeks end.

You guys are kinda pushy today, I set a deadline a month and a half away, i received 3 sets of flies in that due date, and one after. So when I went to buy some stamps, which I spent 10 dollars on because only one person sent me some money (thankyou dloop) I had my bike stolen while at the post office. Later that day I lost my stamps to mail the flies while on the bus back home. I am goin to leave for the post office right now so you guys will get your flies the end of the week. :hmmm

[riverdog]

Just to keep the record straight, the swapmaster I described in my post was not Madison_Angler. It was someone else. I wasn't involved in M_A's swap.

R'Dog

[Dan Soltau]

No offense, but what do you mean by I "disapeared"? I post on this forum every day almost. If you needed to reach me, email me or just post. Now the flies are out and will be there either tomorow or the next day.

Lighten up guys, afterall arent we here and fishing for good ole times sake?

[Kent Lufkin]

>Lighten up guys, afterall arent we here and fishing for
>good ole times sake?

Yes and no.

The message I hear loud and clear in this thread is that a number of guys got their flies in on time and then never heard back from the swapmeister. They shouldn't have to wonder weeks later what happened.

IMHO, it's one thing to let a due date for a swap slide a day or two so stragglers can get their flies in on time. It's another thing entirely to be weeks late and end up being goaded into action by the guys who sent in flies weeks or months before.

As Roper said, you can run your swap any way you want. But when I run mine, the deadline's the deadline. If flies aren't in by then, those guys aren't included in the swap. Period. It's more important to me that the flies that have arrived get sent out on time than everyone waiting for a tardy few.

Fly swaps are an exercise in integrity - doing what you say you're gonna do when you say you're gonna do it. When that doesn't happen, people's expectations aren't met and some folks rightly get a little pissed.

[Dan Soltau]

I agree fully and am taking blame for the fact that they were wondering where the flies were. And I am sorry for that and shouldve probably just sent the flies out. But I thought with only 3 peoples flies in at the time I should wait until at least half of them showed. But they never did and the flies are out in the mail at this point.

[LeakyTiki]

Hi there,
I have participated in 4 fly swaps and have bee very pleased with the results.

I am right now in the middle of my first as a swapmiester and things have been fairly smooth so far.

Fortuna makes some great points above in this thread:

http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=75479&mesg_id=75479&page=1#75567

I was in his damsel swap and must agree the SASE was a great idea.

I have also been in swaps run by Ron Eagle Elk and those have gone without a hitch as well.

Bottom line, I think the Meister has the responsibility to update and remind folks, set a firm deadline, and stick to it.


Peace and GO DAWGS,
LT
:beer2

[Stephen Rice]

Hang on Daddy-o you didn't get any money from me I could have sworn I put cash in there??? if I didn't send any money let me know and I will send some in the mail. and those others who didn't send in there fly's to heck with them. and sorry you got your bike stolen ! what a bummer day that was! I can sympathize with you I have ADD and probably would have forgot I was even the swapmeister(LOL)

[riverdog]

Leaky, I saw how you ran your swap (and Ron as well) and I wished I had joined them both. THAT is how the swaps should go--lots of up-to-date communication.

This thread has given me hope that the awareness levels of all those involved in swaps is higher, and that people will be more likely to give their best from now on.

I am contemplating a swap of my own in the next few weeks. Details to follow.

Riverdog

[Dan Soltau]

I also have to compliment ron eagly elk on that swap. Lots of upt o date info and stuff. SO i think I am retiring form the swapmeister buisinuss and let other handle it.
Dont worry about it nwflyfisher, think of it as payment for them being late and you turning yours in. It should be the people who didnt send their flies who should send money.
I wouldnt have been so mad about my except its my only mode of transportation as I dont have liscense until january.

[James Mello]

So first things first, I'm one of the guilty parties in this swap. Without making excuses, this was my first swap, and I seriously over-committed myself. Between fixing up an old house for rental and moving, my whole life has been topsy turvey. Even so, any flak that I take I certainly deserve. But what I can say is that if I get the mailing addresses of each of the involved parties for the swap, that they will recieve the beadheaded olive, deep sparkle emerger as promised. If this doesn't work out, then the swap coordinator is going to end up with a dozen of these things that he can do with what he wants. Since this is a public forum I figured that if I don't deliver, I'll end up getting flamed so hard that I won't be able to type with the crispy ends of my fingers for a long time....

[James Mello]

>But swap participants have obligations as well.
>
>Don't sign up unless you have every intention and
>opportunity to complete your flies. Signing up for a
>swap even though you know you'll be away on a 3 week
>vacation, starting a new job, studying for finals or
>can't afford tying materials comes under the heading of
>'irresponsible' in my book.

Guilty as charged... Hopefully this won't blackball me from future swaps, but if I do join swaps, it will be at a time when I'm not moving and up to my ears in work! :(

>Here's a few random thoughts about swap etiquette.

Thanks for sending this out. I had a lot of assumptions on how most swaps are run, and all of them were things that I broke :(

-- Cheers
-- James

[James Mello]

In retrospect, since I was the one who f***ed things up, I should be the one who sets it straight. For those in this swap that were interested in recieving a fly, please just email your info and I'll get them out ASAP (i.e. they will be out on friday).

[Ron Eagle Elk]

Sorry All, but I just got back and am catching up. First, thanks for the kind words about the swaps I've run. Nice to hear that every now and then.

Second, I agree with Fortuna. Participating in a swap is an exercise in integrity and personal responsibility. If you host the swap, keep the communication lines open and flowing, and do a quick turn around on getting the flies back out. If you sign up to tie for a swap, tie whats required and meet the deadline or don't sign up. That simple.

Nice to be back.

REE

[James Mello]

In retrospect, since I was the one who f***ed things up, I should be the one who sets it straight. For those in this swap that were interested in recieving a fly, please just email your info and I'll get them out ASAP (i.e. they will be out on friday).


So I've only recieved a single private response for the late flies. If anyone is still interested in getting your flies, please let me know soon. Also, for the person that put on the swap, I'll be sending some flies your way also...


-- Cheers
-- James