Ranger & Jock Scott

[Dave McNeese]

Just wanted to share these treasures with you guys. I just tyed these babies, back in 1884!
Actually, they are from Reverend Davies collection. Mint and unfished. Currently on loan for a book.
Amazing how well they tied a fly without a vise or bobbin.

McNeese

[Dave Westburg]

Great flies, Dave. Would love to see you post more flies from your collection. Do you have any flies tied by Glasso or Walt Johnson?

Have enjoyed reading about you in Trey Comb's book and in Wild Steelhead and Atlantic Salmon, especially the Wild Steelhead and Atlantic salmon story about finding some unexpected "materials" in a package from Asia addressed to Vinnie. It sent me back to my old Fly Fishermen magazines to look for the ads for the place you used to work at.

[Dave McNeese]

Here is a couple of wet flies that imitate fall caddis, by the very finest tyer himself. Circa 1972

[Matt Burke]

Good Lord Mr. McNeese. An honor and a privilege to have you share those with us.

Thanks,

Matt

[davpot]

Gee! I sure wish someone would publish a book of Antique salmon fly patterns!
Are you threatening us with something like that Dave?
Youd sure be the person to do something like this! I mentioned this idea to Les Johnson at the Eugene show a number of years ago, and I shouldnt really repeat what he said!
Go for it Dave! I for one would get in line!
:beer2:

[Hywel]

Thanks *very* much for sharing, Dave!

While there is a plethora of good books on the market on antique Atlantics, I'd sure love to see a definitive publication on 'fancy' Pacific Northwest Steelhead and Salmon flies. Combs's book, while considered by many to be the 'Bible' for Steelhead fishing and flies, is lacking IMO because of the tiny photos of the flies themselves.

davpot,

I take it that Les Johnson was less-than-enthusiastic about a Salmon fly pattern book? I wonder why?

Hywel

[Ronn Lucas]

Hey Dave, thanks for posting those. The "G" flies are exquisite examples of the craft. What size are the two fully dressed flies? We've got it made these days with our micro threads over the Tyers in the day. :)

Happy Trails!
Ronn

[Ron Eagle Elk]

Dave,

Let me join the list of those thanking you for posting those beautiful flies. The artistry of the old flies is really something to behold. Thanks again.

REE

[Matt Burke]

Mr. Lucas is here too. This is getting to be quite the spot for great tyers. I say all of you should post several of your oldest and most prized flies. No holds barred. You guys should really go all out and out do the other. I mean really commence to struggling and battling and we will just sit back and cheer you on.

[Dave McNeese]

Ronn
The size of the D. Ranger is 3". The Jock is a full 2 1/2".
About the head size. I remember in the 50's every one tying in Oregon was using NYMO.. I have trout flies size 16 with small heads. These tyers used their fingers always, no other tools. Look at the flies Polly Rosborough tied in the 50's and 60's, they were tied with NYMO thread.
The salmon flies that I have taken apart for feathers all had heavy silk thread, and their heads were nice in size. Dont complain because you tie a fly with a small head. ;) I saw several of Polly's old steelhead flies from when he sent flies to A.J. McClaine in 1963. These few flies I still think are the BEST OF THEIR KIND, but tied with NYMO the heavy thread.. hooks also make a difference in the head size.. ALLCOCKS tapered eye is what Polly preferred. Later he tied on Wright & McGill and his head size increased, due to the hook wire size.
Nice round head, well laquered, is always beautiful.
Have you seen the work of B.A. & Frier Gulline? Magnificent, round, and not small but perfectly proportioned to the size of the fly they were tying.

IMHO,
McNeese

[Monk]

Smokin'! Thanks for the pics! I am truly amazed.

[Jerry Daschofsky]

Those are awesome, thanks for posting.

Scotty, I for one think the Combs book is considered a "bible" by most because of the info and recipes, not the "pictures". When I started flyfishing for steelhead around 80/81' that was all there was to find on the subject. Taught me alot, and helped the learning curve. Plus, alot of the info is still good, even in todays world (still have my old copy from back then that's nearly in pieces now). So don't think it's the pictures, it's the content. I know when I suggest it, it's mostly for the fishing info and some patterns, not purely on patterns alone.

Not sure why Les would mind, unless he had an antique book in mind. Thought his book was centered off NW salmon flies. I could see how he'd be ticked if he had a classics in the works. I for one would LOVE to see a book full of old antique flies. Think that would be awesome. I'd buy it for sure. Been plugging away at the full dressed, thanks to Ronn here. I got fed up, and he convinced me to keep plugging away. Can't say thanks more for the pep talk.

[davpot]

:ray1: I guess Id better clear this one up, so I dont step on anyones feet! We were sitting at his table and I asked him if hed given any thought to publishing a book of antique flies. He kind of looked at me and said: its a waste of time. Noones interested.
Apparently he had a pretty nice collection and was rebuffed by publishers, etc.
Of course, I felt pretty deflated, and just chalked it up to a bad day at the show.
But you guys are right about there being books with antique flies in them: I just dont think there is a coffee table type of reference book with pictures and history that would justify the beautiful flies Dave has displayed above.
I sure hope someone like DAve can come out with a definitive reference book of such flies with clear pics and iteresting and informative text! :cool:

I thought Id attach a pic of a genuine W. Blacker fly from his 1842 book held in the BYU rare books vault! (the hooks were like glass!)

[Matt Burke]

If a guy was to write a book about antique flies and the making of them, I sure would like to see how they did it with no vise. If a guy could go back in time with a video camera, most people would hit all the great events in our history from the 1800's forward. I'd say, to hell with that, let the world fall apart, I'm going looking for fly tiers without vises.

[Tim Cottage]

Thank you Dave McN and Davpot for sharing these flies.
I have a question or two.
Regarding the Jock Scott, what type and color is the tinsel between the mid body butt and the tail butt?

It is interesting to see the low wing profile on the ranger. Is this more typical on older ranger type flies or just the personal style of this tier?

Davpot and Dave McN - The more Blacker flies that I see, the more I come to appreciate his contribution to history of Salmon flies. I know that there are many who believe that Blacker represents the pinnacle of salmon fly artistry. However, since no one, no matter how creative, creates in a vacuum. I would like to gain a better understanding of his influences. Can either of you guys suggest readily available sources that could shed some light on those influences? By "readily available", I mean without my purchasing rare books or manuscripts.

Thanks
TC

[Jerry Daschofsky]

Matt, there is a NW tyer who does full dressed in hand. Do believe I read an article about Harry Lemire tying them "in hand".

[Bob Triggs]

Lee Wulff was famous for sitting on the steps and tying flies by hand. People were just amazed. He did use a vise often. But he could tie just about anything by hand.

[Matt Burke]

Hell, I'd pay good money to see it done. Unfortunately, all I have is bad money.

[Davy]

A limited editon as in Bates book would be nice about NW Steelhead tyers & fishers and their patterns.Some of Wes Drain,the father and son named Gayeski,Carl Haffler,Bob Sheirholz etc.Some were more tyers than fisherman and some were more fisherman than tyers.Wes tyed some real intriquing patterns that many here would find,well, interesting.And Haffler and his original use of dyes would be good.There were alot of great NW tyers that came out of the mid-century that didn't become "names" like Combs and Gobin and Raymond and McNeese, etc. Sorry Dave-couldn't resist.You can whack me when I get down to Salem.

Anyway,that'd be neat in print IMHO, Davy

[Davy]

I am going to have to do some searching- but years ago there was article in Fly Tyer about a tyer in ,of all places,Italy,that does everything inhand.Incuding making all his threads and thread holders etc.Do you remember the article Dave?It was impressive but all my back issues are in storage.Woulda been late 80's or 1990 or 91 I think.

Thanks for sharing those peices.

[Jerry Daschofsky]

Haven't read the book in awhile. But wasn't there a Colin Simpson (think that's his name) in Joseph Bates book who was only like 15 at time of publishing, but was mentored in dressing atlantics. I do believe in the book it mentioned he normally dressed them in hand then a vise (picture of him showed him at a vise I do believe). Only reason this stuck out, is because he did such lovely work for his age, and in hand to boot. Would love to be mentored like that.

[Hywel]

Davy Earl,

Was Belarmino Martinez the tyer you were thinking of? I believe he tied from the hand, fashioned his own tools, and used tying thread garnered from womens' stockings. If I remember too, the heads of some of his flies, which had a beautiful sienna color, were finished with an automotive paint.

Hywel

[Davy]

Hywel-yes, that was the man,can't believe I forgot his name- I certainly will never forget that article and his methods/creations--burned in memory for sure.thanks alot- owe you a beer

Davy :beer2:

[Hywel]

Hey Davy Earl,

Glad I could help a little!

Belarmino Martinez is one of my all-time favorite tyers.

If you haven't already checked it out, Hans Weilenmann has a page on Martinez's work on his website.

Ironic that his name should come up...I was actually dressing a rendition of his "Hot Orange" when I read your post!

Hywel

[Dave McNeese]

Davy

I do believe that I read that particular article, but unfortunately I don't remember much of it. My copies are also in storage. bawling:
I still have a good collection of flies from many unnamed men. Like Syd Glasso they didnt care to be known, not in print anyway. I got to be with Wes many times and still think his flies were BEST quality flies. Also spent a few times with Ed Haas in the 70's and he was sure a TOP tyer, but not much on fishing. Much like Polly Rosborough, tyed a good fly, but didn't fish very much. He let anglers speak about his flies and A.J. McClaine made him famous.
It's unfortunate what happened in the mid 70-'s, that many great angler/tyers would not publish their flies. Dick Surrette begged many of these unknowns to allow him to publish their work in his magazine, to no avail. I'm not sure what they were afraid of, or if they just did not want any notoreity.
McNeese

[Jerry Daschofsky]

Dave, just a guess, but maybe some of these guys were hardcore fisherman, and just wanted to share the flies with them, not everyone. The "secret flies" stash. I have friends who send me some every now and then. One friend sent me a fly he's been slaying them on the Rogue with, but said "don't show anyone". For them, it may not be how well the flies are tied, maybe it's they don't want the patterns out. Just a guess. :confused:

[Davy]

Dave, your so right,my teacher - nevr seemed to desire any - he tyed plates for collectors but privately-taught a few classes, and mentored me.I know he tyed a few shows for Ed Rice but that was about it.But he simply shyed away from any notoreity.I know Sheweys book uncovered a few of these "unknowns".

Speaking of hand tying,years ago I practiced at it and got to where I could tye an acceptable Blue Charm in my hands.Key word is acceptable,for fishing that is.Jeez.my arthritic fingers today would never be able to catch and hold the threads and tinsels I would think.

Dave-When you fished with Wes did he just name his fly by number? #1,#3,etc ??Or was that someone else in my spotty memory?

Davy

[Dave McNeese]

Davy,

Wes and I never actually fished together, we just hung out and yakked about the old days. We traded flies, materials and b.s. often. I can tell you, however, that he did speak of his flies with names and not numbers.
I'm not sure who you're thinking of. Wish I could help.
DM

[StuFarnham]

Since we are on the subject of Syd and his flies -- here are photos of three, courtesy of Art Lingren, from the collection of Bob Taylor in Vancouver, BC: a Thunder & Lightning -- on a #4 hook; a Courtesan; and an unnamed hackle tip spey in the style of his Black Heron.

Stu

[ray helaers]

If anyone's interested, you can usually get a chance to see Harry tie in hand at the FFF show in Bellevue (Feb I think?).

[Dave McNeese]

Regarding the Jock Scott, what type and color is the tinsel between the mid body butt and the tail butt?

It is interesting to see the low wing profile on the ranger. Is this more typical on older ranger type flies or just the personal style of this tier?

Davpot and Dave McN - The more Blacker flies that I see, the more I come to appreciate his contribution to history of Salmon flies. I know that there are many who believe that Blacker represents the pinnacle of salmon fly artistry. However, since no one, no matter how creative, creates in a vacuum. I would like to gain a better understanding of his influences. Can either of you guys suggest readily available sources that could shed some light on those influences? By "readily available", I mean without my purchasing rare books or manuscripts.
Thanks
TC

It's a very fine silver twist.

Absolutely. There were thousands of flies in the box that this Ranger came to me in. Wing profiles were much lower than they are today.

Blacker was self taught. He was the owner of a tackle store where many aristocratic Atlantic Salmon fisherman came to purchase flies. He responded to their requests for "more outlandish, more color!" In "The Art of The Atlantic Salmon Fly" by Joe Bates, there is a collection of flies ties by Syd Glasso that mimic Blackers. I have a copy of the book if you would like to borrow, or I can photograph the page.

McNeese

[Scott Behn]

I know if you can photograph the page some of us that live a ways away sure would appreciate it Dave...

Thanks

[Rich McCauley]

Gentlemen,
May I suggest that you attend the Fly Fishing Show Feb 11, 12, 13, 2005
Meydenbauer Center, Bellevue , Washington:
One of the notable tyers listed is Harry Lemire and he does indeed do
Full Dress Atlantic Salmon Flies using the traditional in hand method.

[speyflyfisher]

Dave
Great pictures, keepem coming. I like the low profile of the D ranger
as well. With the respect to the earlier post, Its alot easier to tie a 3" ranger
with a low profile than a 2" one. I did find the Jock Scott interesting, It looks
like the turkey under wing in a reverse fashion than that used by most tiers today. Meaning the slip that is near the camera would be the one on the far side if I were tying it. Its also interesting to that the underwing appears more dominate than the "main wing". Not seeing the fly in person its hard to see if it started out that way.

Thanks again
speyflyfisher

[Dave McNeese]

Ok, here is the picture of a page out of Joe Bates book. These are Syds rendition of Blackers patterns. I believe they are very true to form.

[Tim Cottage]

RE: Blacker from Bates via Glasso
Beautiful, Thanks, Must have this book. Finding it is easy, finding a great deal on it is not.

TC