Tennis (elbow) anyone?

[Luke Filmer]

I have been fishing more often in the last 12 months than ever, and have attributed the dull ache in my elbow to this increased, and constant casting.
Admittedtly, I am a self taught caster, but feel as though I can cast great distances with ease.
Perhaps my technique is off?
I have been using an intermediate sink tip for cuts, and salmon out in the salt on the local beaches, and it definately takes more work to get the line out than it does to cast a floating line.
I work at home, and live closeby to good beach fishing, and find the temptation to go fishing too great, so I end up fishing at least 3-4 times a week for several hours a day.
The obvious answer would be to take a break for a couple weeks, but with Salmon season in full swing -it is just not an option;)
My elbow has a constant dull ache, and I find the most mundane of tasks to be quite painful at times.
If anyone could weigh in on this with some advice, it would be sorely appreciated.

[westie]

My Elbow is fine, but I have been having trouble with my shoulder lately which I attribute to my increased beach fishing also. I recently started a new job that is on the beach and like you the temptation to go fishing has been too great. 3-4 times a week after work has been common the last several weeks. Throwing the 8 wt for silvers with an intermediate line and going for maximum distance, I think did the damage. According to the Doc, I may have a torn or damaged rotator cuff! An MRI is forthcoming after the Chum run! Maybe some casting lessons will improve my technique which may help to avoid injury. Can anyone suggest a good casting instructor?

Jeff

[Luke Filmer]

Hey Jeff,
I feel your pain! I have a couple float trips lined up for peninsula rivers, and may pack the spinning rod instead of the fly rod.
I certainly don't want to risk increasing whatever damage I may have already caused.
I wonder how the fly guys who guide for a living deal with these injuries?

Looking forward to hearing some responses on this.
-Luke

[shgrier]

Hey Jeff,
I feel your pain! I have a couple float trips lined up for peninsula rivers, and may pack the spinning rod instead of the fly rod.
I certainly don't want to risk increasing whatever damage I may have already caused.
I wonder how the fly guys who guide for a living deal with these injuries?

Looking forward to hearing some responses on this.
-Luke

Not a guide by a long shot, but I'm reminded of how the old guys (even older than you, Jim!;) ) used to teach the young uns how to cast - they'd put a bible under their casting elbow to make them learn to keep their elbow in.

I think we all (me especially) tend to overdo the forward/backward movements of our elbows in casting - I know Lefty even advocates it (as long as it's in the same plane, I believe he says). But most of the time, when my casting's gone to s*&t, it's because I've started to let that elbow wander around.:mad: I had a pretty bad murdercycle accident a couple of years ago (broke my collarbone on my casting arm and a couple of ribs), and since then, I've REALLY had to concentrate on keeping my elbow in, or my casting gets very sloppy.

Now I don't go for distance like you salt-boys do, but I still think we use our arms more than we should - that graphite's pretty strong stuff; the old adage is: let the rod do the work...

Just my 2¢. :o Undoubtedly your mileage will vary....

Sean
Sultan

[salt dog]

Fish-artist, can you say therapy? I've spoken with multiple folks over the years suffering from the same malady and the time of recovery seems to be somewhat age dependent, like any other injury, and whether you take the appropriate steps to seek treatment and religiously follow the rehab program. As least it did for me. Ice, followed by heat, after every session at the beach. Plus exercises to strengthen the supporting structural muscles.

I think it was last summer I saw that a bunch of doc's had a week long seminar being offered in Livingston (?) MT on casting injuries, and provided instructors to analyze technique to prevent re-injury after recovery. Sweet gig to write off your whole fishing trip, huh. You may need a referral from your doctor for insurance purposes, but to accelerate recovery I would search for a good physical therapist that also is a fly fisher; wish I had, you might have gotten casting lessons thrown in as a part of an insurance claim. :)

If the injury is chronic, you may want to consider looking into 2 handed beach rods (and spey for the rivers). I read that avoidance of shoulder/elbow injury in one of the touted benefits to converting to a 2 hander. Switch rod may be the happy balance, using a single hand for awhile, then switch to the double handed before you can tire out the elbow too much. In any event, it is something that is not likely to go away by itself in a short period of time. Best of luck.

[Old Man]

I don't have that kind of problem. But it could be caused by the way you cast. My problem is my back from all the twisting that you do from the waist down. After casting for a while you will probably see me laying down on the rocks resting my back. If you do just keep on fishing as I'm not dead or dying:rofl: :rofl:

Jim

[Steve Rohrbach]

Jeff, I have chronic shoulder pain from years of abuse in football. I find that if I forget to focus on good casting technique, I am muscling the fly rod and in addition to throwing some aweful casts, I end up with increased shoulder pain.

I would suggest you contact Jimmy LeMert of Patrick's Fly Shop (a board sponsor.) Jimmy is a FFF Certified Master Caster and he teaches regularly. Jimmy is also an avid beach fisherman so he can help with techniques that he uses regularly. He will probably also suggest that you check out the new Outbound fly line. We were both fishing it yesterday. It is unforgiving, but when you cast it properly, it flies. We just need to find some more cooperative coho.

Good luck, Steve

[wboles3]

I too am suffering from tennis elbow. Stretching exercises prior casting is good start. Appling ice afterwards helps with the pain. However, the most effective exercise I have found is a "Negative Arm Curl". Start with something about 12oz's. and each time you curl your arm reduce the weight. A couple ounces at a time. Once you reach zero ounces repeat the process. Before long you and your elbow will be feeling fine. If you find starting with 12oz's is not effective, try starting with 16oz's or maybe more.:beer2:

Bill

[Bob Triggs]

Good casting technique helps prevent injuries. You need a coach.

A case in point; when I got into salt water fly fishing I was using a nine weight for the first time. I had been fly fishing for about 12 years without receiving any coaching on my casting skills. Consequently I had achieved a very high degree of mediocrity in casting and presentation- enough to be about average as a fly fisherman. And I had developed tendonitis in my casting wrist and elbow, and a very bad shoulder rotator cuff injury that persists to pain me to this day. I finally got some help with my casting, and I worked very hard at correcting my faults in casting technique- practising often. In time I improved my technique and my casting was greatly enhanced, as was my fishing success. The whole game became so much more enjoyable. And my injuries went away mostly. I no longer cast with the pain that I used to have- exactly like what you described above. And I can now make some of the casts, that were so difficult to accomplish before I got help, effortlessly.

The more you give to the game the better it gets. Most fly anglers miss out on the fun of becoming the best casters that they can become. And they miss some fish because of this too. If you are experiencing pain during fly casting then something is wrong. Do not continue to injure yourself without investigating the problem. It may be a serious physical issue. It may just be bad mechanics. But either way it does not have to be that way.

[Surf_Candy]

I agree with Steve - I have both shoulders in moderate pain during my weight lifting sessions, but can cast for hours with no pain - technique, technique, technique - your casting arm and shoulder not be the the driver for your cast - it's all in the haul and using the leverage of the rod.

As Lefty says, your left arm (hauling arm) is the gear shift,not your casting arm.

Jim

[wet line]

Westie, Anil at Puget Sound Fly Co. is a certified instructor. He can help you get things ironed out.

Dave

[Porter]

I too..went through the elbow thing....I also played sports...baseball, football and every once in awhile the elbow thing would pop up. It would simply go away with time...but you had to shut down. With fly casting I had it happen once...shut down for three weeks and have not encountered a problem since...(4 years ago.) Why it comes up and why it goes away I do not know....but if you have true tendenitus (sp?) only time will heal it.

[steveb]

I recently bought the book "Fit to Fish" written by a physical therapist and an orthopedic surgeon who both flyfish. The recommendations are founded in science and address both technique and gear mods as well as exercises that really help. I highly recommend it!

[Flyfishsteel]

I had a case of that type of pain also. I've come to a conclusion: Imagine your elbow being 6 o'clock and your rod straight up is 12 o'clock. Between 10 and 2 my arm was still in casting mode and gripping the handle tight 90% of the time.
I learned to relax and loosen your grip a little between 10 and 2 and add more strength and tighten your grip more after 10 and 2.

In a nut shell, stay relaxed between 10 and 2 and tighten your grip and kick in after 10 and 2. Now I can cast ALL day without any probs. Being relaxed and taking deep breaths have helped me big time, this decreasing stress in your arm and throughout your entire body.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[southpaw22]

I am an athlete and a kinesiology major/trout bum. i am young and have learned to be ambidextrious for this reason. i was a catcher with multiple arm problems, thus spent a lot of time at physical therapy. have you tried to ice your elbow at nite or heat it up before you pitch your line? IE~ice for 15 on 10 off repeated during your favorite show at nite. to heat your arm do some warm ups, or use some surgical tubing before the fishing battle. it should only take about 5 min to ease your pain. maybe even try some icy hot, be careful with the patches though because some people have an allergic reaction. let me know if want some exercise warmups or can't get any tubing.
screaming reels,
sp22

[Zen Piscator]

Bob Triggs is about the most qualified guy around for this kinda stuff, it might pay to contact him with your troubles. Casting just isnt a natural movement, think about all other sports, when do you have to apply the same amount of power and timing in the backstroke as the forward stroke. Naturaly it is difficult and can cause injurys because, it just isnt a movement commonly preformed, unatural. When you are looking for more distance at the beach, it pays to not only use your arm but other parts of your body. Shoulders can mess up tracking of the cast but add mucho mucho power if you can keep them under control. Same with hip rotation, and even a push off with the legs on the final cast.

Peace,
Andy

[miyawaki]

I had a case of tennis elbow a number of years ago. I tried various store bought bandages, braces, salves and ointments to no avail. Finally, in desperation, I did what you did by posting on a flyfishing website and received a recommendation of a Ballard acupunturist friend of a fellow flyfisher. After a few months of needle poking, darkened rooms, burning moss, and sitar music (along with learning to grip my rod tighter), I was cured. Now if I can only get rid of the nagging aches and pains that have accompanied my 62nd birthday, I'd be truly happy.

Leland.

[willieboat]

RX:
Ibuprofin and a spey rod. Take two over the counter types three times per day the day before, the day of and the day after. :ray1:

Don

[Uncle Jimmy]

This may sound really odd. But I notice its hook setting, not casting, that upsets my elbow. Come salmon season in the fall my elbow always begins to twinge after several good days fishing.

[salt dog]

UJ, hard to get much sympathy with that one; aches from catching too many fish don't count. :)

[Ron Crawford]

I agree with the above posts recommending a spey rod on the beach. This is especially helpful when you are looking for salmon who tend to be a bit further out than SRC. The thing is ... this doesn't need to be a huge spey rod you would get into for winter steelhead. Right now I am using a 6 weight light spey rod with an 8wt Rio outbound. I can cast 50 feet without even trying very hard lots more if I concentrate. Using two hands seriously reduces the workload on your casting arm.

To tell the truth - I am a pretty bad spey caster (just learning) but I learned to overhand cast a spey rod in one afternoon. It's worth a try.

To keep equipment costs down I scaned Ebay and found a spey rod that was custom built by a beginer that isn't really all that well done, but it works. It only cost me $150. I see a few spey rods under $300 each month. If you keep your eyes on it you can find a good deal and get into it without blowing a lot of $$$$.

Give it a try.

[Luke Filmer]

Thanks for all the great advice!
The 12oz. curls sound very therapuetic, and I can certainly try that one.
I will contact a certified casting instructor for lessons, and as the damage is not severe enough to miss my forks trip next Sunday, I will post a report upon my return.
I floated the Queets last Sunday, and it was slooooow.

Saw 5 other drifters and everyone was working hard for just a few fish.
The water was 50 degrees, and low & clear, but I think the gillnets saw most of the action.
A couple more heavy rains, and maybe next week will be the ticket on that river.

[Les Johnson]

I went to a physical therapist for a sore elbow years ago. I discovered that the problem was that my grip was not strong enough. Working with those little hand-held squeezers cured the prolem. I still do 5 sets of 20 with them every evening. Also, when I was editor of Flyfishing & Tying Journal I ran an article by Merriam Pink, MD who was head of physical therapy at UCLA medical center as I recall. She provided a set of exercises for keeping shoulders strong. I still do these three times each week using just 8 pound weights. I may be able to dig up the article but don't know how to post it. I'm a short 160 pounds and 72 years old and have absolutely no elbow or shoulder problems with any kind of rod.
Good Fishing,
Les Johnson

[scoutlvr]

I have had the same problem from time to time and found a great solution. It is called an Aircast that's used to help tennis elbow. I wear it all the time while fishing and often at work. IT helps a Ton and I got mine at Big5.

Good luck, Nathan

[tailwalking trout]

wrap your arm tight just below your elbow it helps with the pain. just be glad your not a framer.

[salt dog]

Nathan, is that a stretch fabric brace of sorts for around your elbow?

[Jim Fitz]

I am happy to run across this post and all its good advice. I've been out FFing more and more this year and had more and more pain in my elbows and wrists of recent. I think this is partially due to FFing but it exists in both arms. Some of the worst pain is while I am fishing (while casting). I finally went to a doctor this week. I assumed he was going to tell me to stop fly fishing whereupon I was prepared to kill him. Fortunately this did not occur. He declared it Tennis/Golfers elbow (i.e. tendonitis). He gave me some anti-immflamatory drugs and I am wearing arm band thingys right now. These really work - they hurt so bad, I can't feel the tendonitis anymore!

I plan on starting weight training and stretching (based on input from the Dr.) once this initial stuff helps correct the situation (assuming it does - into Phys therapy if not).

I am looking forward to getting into spey casting for the reasons mentioned above (and several others).

I have seen that some fly fishing gear companies sell squeeze balls for correcting this situation. I bought one but it made my arm hurt more.

Probably should get some casting lessons.

[Les Johnson]

I posted on this thread noting that I once published an article several years ago in Flyfishing and Tying Journal on shoulder exercises that will lterally cure aches and pains in the rotator cuff. Somehow it didn't get posted. I may still be able to find the piece which was sent to my by Dr. Merriam Pink, chair of the UCLA physical therapy school, as I recall. I followed the exercises to straighten out shoulder strain and still do them three times a week.
As for Tennis elbow; it is a grip problem. A physical therapist at Weyerhaeuser discovered this for me. Using hand grips to strengthen my grip cured the tennis elbow. I still to five sets of 20 with the hand grips three times each week.
I will look for the old text and photos if Washington Fly Fishing would like to post them. Please let me know.

Good Fishing,
Les Johnson

[Dan Reynolds]

What do you do for a living?

If you work at a desk, behind a computer...take note if your forearm is resting on the edge (corner) of the desk. That has been the cause of some of my pain...

Try one of those store bought wraps by ACE , they basically immobilize the elbow and work wonders.

In addition, make sure to use up a few sick days for streamside therapy.

[Jim Fitz]

Mr. Les Johnson,

I for one would love it if you could post the articles you speak of. I will do any amount of exercizes, streches, weight lifting, standing on head, (not acupuncture, well maybe as a last resort) to stay in fly fishing. I have honestly been worried I would have to give it up.

Tried to send you a pm but wouldn't work - ??

Jim F.

[salt dog]

Les, if you could locate that article I would love to read it. None of us are getting any younger, and it makes sense to post it as you mentioned, in the articles section to be able to reference to it as needed.

[Stonefish]

There is also a new book that just came out.
It is titled "Fit to Fish: How to Tackle Angling Injuries" by Stephen L. Hisey, P.T. and Keith R. Berend, M.D.
Available through Frank Amato Publications - http://www.amatobooks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=1571883541&Category_Code=New_Releases
Brian

[Smalma]

Fish-artist -
With through this elbow pain thing several years ago and found that in addition to casting flaws improperly play of fish can also cause significant elbow pain.

While I never had the problem until my mid-50s where it seemed that the torque of playing fish on my elbow caused significant and chronic pain. Once I learned to re-position the location of my elbow while playing fish - bring it into my side while playing the fish and if needed anchor the butt of the rod against my chest/stomach relieved much of the pressure and I had pain relieve in matter of days.

At the same time I was fishing a lot with sinking lines/sink tips and hauling those out of the water to start the first back cast and water loading the cast also put quite a bit of stress on my elbow - learned to square my body to the trailing line (due to current swing) and then turning to face my target once the back cast was in the air and shorten the line prior to starting the back cast. Seemed like a small thing butt the numerous casts made in a full day on the water the toll can be significant.

As point out by Les and others strengthing excerise have an obvious benefit and likely becomes more important as our joints age. My other concession to getting old has been learning to take a short break from the constant casting every 45 minutes or so - relief to my back as well.

Tight lines
Curt

[Les Johnson]

I just sent the article I told you all about to Chris Scoones. Also, I sent a very good casting article by Mel Krieger. Stay tuned.
Good Fishing,
Les Johnson

[Paul Huffman]

Tennis elbow is more of a grip and wrist problem than many realize. One of the tendons that moves the wrist is attached back at the elbow and that attachment point gets inflamed by repeated tiny tears in the tissue. That's probably why Uncle Jimmy noticed it when hooking and landing a lot of fish. In the excitement of hooking a fish, you're probably gripping the rod extra tight. Wetting your cork or wearing/changing your casting glove might help a lot.

I had quite a problem with it one winter recently. I got it on my left elbow, the stripping side, not the casting side. I'd spend a couple long cold days with a single hand rod. The cold and trying to grip the line with gloves on eventually wore me down. Cast, swing, strip, strip, strip, repeat. The only thing that interrupted this pattern were pauses to clean ice from the guides. I was bothered by the sore elbow all week, particularly each time I grabbed something between my thumb and middle finger. I couldn't figure out what had caused it until I made my first cast the next weekend.

I was amazed at how well a forearm band worked. These tennis elbow bands can be found at drug stores over by the knee wraps and Dr. Scholl's. These are elastic bands that go around the forearm below the elbow and magically take the strain off the tendon's attachment point.

Here's some scanned pages from the Sports Medicine Patient Advisor. I did the icing and the exercises, but it still took a couple months to clear up: http://ykfp.org/tenniselbow/tenniselbow.pdf

[rede2go]

Im glad you all want to fix the problem the right way but if the pain is too much the simple quick fix is a shot of cortisone, i need it every 3 or 4 years and its amazing how much pain goes away in 24hours!
ANd yes the DR gives me some tubing and exersices to do and they do slow it way down, But when i move my elbows and they crack and it sounds like bones cracking but its the tendons i know its time to go back to the dr.
It works for me.

And the best part, is i can fish all day WITHOUT pain!

[sashjo]

Lateral Epicondylitis occurs because the extensor muscles and tendons lack strength and/or flexibility. First, you want to control the pain with a tennis elbow wrap, ice massage and a corticosteroid injection if necessary. Then you should perform rehab exercises to increase strength and flexibility to prevent this overuse injury from returning.

[Chris Scoones]

I'll have the two articles sent by Les completed soon. They are hard print so it'll take a bit to convert them.

[salt dog]

Thank you Mr. Scoones.