SRC Fishing Slowing Down

[Roger Stephens]

Over the last 1 1/2 weeks the SRC fishing has been slowing down. Yesterday I fished 12 good SRC locations but only landed fish at 3 of these spots. It appears that many SCR particularly the large smart fish(+16") have followed the chum salmon into freshwater to feast on their spare eggs. I landed a couple of moderate sized SRC(12-16") at each of the 3 locations and no hookups anywhere else. The 14-16" SRC's were absolutely beautiful fish as they were starting to show their spawning colors which would take your breath away.

The resident silvers fisheries should start to heat up soon. So it should be fun to start poking around to see where they might be hanging out this winter besides their usual places.

Roger

[Luke Filmer]

I had my personal best day today. I caught 7 SRC, and 3 res. coho in about 2 hours.
The wind was howling, and the rain was pouring, but about every 3rd cast or so was a nice fish to hand.
This should be the best time of year so dont give up...The next time you go could be awesome.
I fished hard last week for about 4 hours, and only hooked one small SRC.
The res. coho are definately out there, and they were about 12' - 16".
Go get em!

[Lucid Dreams of Fish]

I have been sick, and lacking money, lately. (So no long distiant travaling to better locations.) And today I slept in to make sure I get over this cold. But I could not rest a temptation to try fishing for SRC. So went over to Lincoln Park, and never got a single strike. But that is not the best place to go to, it seems a miss and hit deal. And the SRC should get better from what hear and read. But 7 SRC and 3 cohos, only into 2 hours sound like a great day to me, but I am new. If I had location, I would be in heaven.

[Les Johnson]

A lot of cutthroat have moved into parent streams by now which is one reason that there are not the numbers in Puget Sound. Also, from now through probably May, south Puget Sound cutthroat (which do spend more time in the salt than those further north) will be darting into small creeks to spawn on each high water period.
Also, it is important to remember that even though we practice catch-and-release fishing on our cutthroat, there is still a percentage of harvest because some cutthroat released do die of trauma even when they appear to be no worse for wear. So when you have a big day of fishing along the beach, or in a river, your ratio of cutthroat-killed goes up. It is a fact of life. So, it is better to have a marvelous day by taking a few good cutthroat than a killer day of catching a lot ot them. From now through January or February it is a good conservation practice to concentrate on hatchery-reared juvenile coho and give our wild cutthroat a period of respite.
Good Fishing,
Les Johnson

[Wayne]

So in general terms, where would we find the hatchery juvenile coho and not so many cutthroat?

[Les Johnson]

By Thanksgiving there are good numbers of juvenile coho in the Tacoma Narrows around Doc's place (Narrows County Park) all the way to Point Fosdick. Also, there are usually good numbers of young coho throughout Hale Passage. Another place for young coho is throughout Colvos Passage. Coho will be feeding, primarily on euphausiids and amphipods, in these areas through May. Check regulations for closure periods. Anglers also work around Copachuck State Park throughout the winter for coho.
These fish will be 11-13-inches and grow rapidly to solid 18-inchers by late May. Great on light tackle
A general rule is that coho are more comfortable in heavier flows of current than are cutthroat, which prefer softer water.
Good Fishing,
Les Johnson

[martyg]

Les

We all have to get out at some point and get wet, but it seems that there is so much fishing to be done in Puget Sound that one could easily fish 12 months out of the year.

That being said, in the name of our fisheries, is there an ideal period when we, as conversaton minded individuals, should think about voluntarily limiting our fishing time? Maybe now when the Silvers are small and the SRC will be spawning?

Understand that I would still get out, paddle and do a little fishing to see what's up, but what is prudent as anglers?

Thanks for your input.

MG

[Les Johnson]

I don't believe that we should quit fishing in the winter. You are going to encounter fewer cutthroat during the winter as some have returned to their parent rivers and others are probably dining on chum eggs. Even some small stream cutthroat of south Puget Sound begin spawning in November and December. I simply said that it is a good time to concentrate on small coho during this period as they are relatively plentiful (at least we hope so). You'll still catch some nice cutthroat, just not as many. This has always been the timing of Puget Sound cutthroat fishing. Using discretion in our fishing should not be a difficult concept to subscribe to. Enjoy the winter fishing in Puget Sound -- and take one of Roderick Haig-Brown's classics along to read while you are having lunch.
One personal bias that I have is that when a marine area is closed to salmon fishing, it should also be closed to cutthroat fishing. This would serve to give cutthroat the same sanctuary that salmon are provided. Finally, we should find ways to enjoy every day out fishing, whether we catch a lot of fish or not. A river keeper in England once said, "It should be about the fishing, not catching fish". That holds true today.
Good Fishing,
Les Johnson

[Smalma]

Searun -
I understand where you are coming from with the issue of hooking mortality on the sea-run cutthroat. However from what I have seen the hooking mortality on those small coho is pretty high (10% or more).

I understand that most of the resident coho are hatchery fish but why would you advocate fishing (and killing) them in the winter as just 11 to 13 inch fish when in just a few months (late spring and summer) they will be much larger? Those summer fish will weight 3 to 10 times as much as they do now. It would seem to me if we equate nice size fish with quality that it would be smart to postpone our fishing for resident silvers until the summer.

Just another spin on the same issue.

Tight lines
Curt

[cascade kid]

I think it would be a shame to lose the year round fishery on the Sound. Its constancy is one of the best things about it. We truly have an endless season. That being said, I think Mr. Johnson does have a good point about coming to terms with the issue of hooking mortality. A certain percentage die-- that's just an unpleasant fact, and one that each of us has to face in our own personal fishing ethic. I personally cringe when I hear people talking about releasing 20 to 30 fish in a day. There are some dead fish on the bottom of Puget Sound after a day like that, whether or not we wish it so.

For me, there can be too much of a good thing, and restraint has its place. When a person has caught what they feel is a reasonable number, maybe that's a good time to try a new method or move on.

Respectfully,
James

[Banzai]

Non-salmonids (Perch, Flatfishes, Sculpin, et al) can still bring a smile to your faceand a bend to your rod.:) Just downsize your gear appropriately and have at it.

[martyg]

Hey so as someone who was raised in the Great Lakes we always could find great smallmouth, largemouth and pike fishing to suppliment Salmon and Trout (notice what is capitolized:p ).

What are the alternatives for great table fare? How do you fish for them?

[Roger Stephens]

Les brings up a lot of good thoughts/veiwpoints! Agree that now is the time to start targeting resident silvers and give sea-run cutthroat some respite.

In my opinion, a 10% hooking mortality for resident silvers seems to be a bit high. From my experience, hooking mortality is much higher for sea-run cutthroat vs. resident silvers. Sea-run cutthroat are a very fragile, strong fighting fish which make them more susceptible to go belly up. Resident silvers can be landed quicker and can tolerate mishandling better. Because of hooking mortality, I use the smallest hook gap(usually use 3XL or 4XL hooks) that is feasible for a fly pattern.

Roger

[Smalma]

Roger -
Here is just one link addressing hooking mortality -
http://afs.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1577%2F1548-8675(1993)013%3C0524:MOCACS%3E2.3.CO%3B2

Most of the stuff I have seen pegs the mortality between 10 to 20% for small coho caught on recreational gear. While the mortality on fly caught gear might be lower than other gear I would not expect it to be much lower - most of the mortality is from handling rather than mechanical damage from the hooks.

Tight lines
Curt

[Bob Triggs]

I have decided not to handle the fish if at all possible. When fishing for Cutts I am using a short shank barbless hook, and I try to gently slip that from them without handling the fish. A problem I see with C&R fly anglers is that they play fish too long and too hard and then they grab at them while handling them. If you go about it calmly and gently you can release these fish without injury or handling them needlessly. Once you start grabbing at fish, handling them, squeezing them etc, then you can expect that some of them are going to die. Fewer will die if you just go easier on them, and dont handle them at all.

[gt]

mortality studies are all flawed. there is simply ZERO methodology available to see if that released fish actually survives in a natural setting, can't happen, no way.

you can do the following, however:
- never handle the fish, period
- use a release tool such as the 'ketumrelease', not a net, of any kind.
- use equipment heavy enough to get the fish to hand quickly. fish also build lactic acid
- if the fight takes too long break off!

what really bothers me is the notion that '...why i can catch any fish that swims on my 5wt...' so? gear up for a quick fight, learn to use your rod correctly, and do you part of try and get that fish a chance of surviving 'our fun.'

[Les Johnson]

This has been a good thread. I would have flown an trial balloon for a complete closure through the winter but was concerned that I would really stir the pot with such radical thinking. Fin-clipped, pen-reared coho are released into Puget Sound to be caught --and eaten -- if one chooses, regardless of size. I am in agreement with Curt that protecting them until they grow larger is an excellent idea.
It appears that most folks believe that sensible fly-fishing is the answer even if they have differing opinions on the details. That is a heart-warming ethic.

Good Fishing,
Les Johnson

[TomB]

gt- i don't see the point of your statement about mortality studies. All studies have inherent biases and assumptions. While it is impossible to control every variable that might affect a fish in a "natural" environment, you can control many and get a good idea what the prevalence of mortality might look like in a natural environment. No ecological study "proves" anything, but it can "suggest" things with considerable accuracy.
-Tom

[gt]

i would be more than interested to read any literature you may point me to regarding just how released fish mortality is measured.

my point is simply that with the wide range of uncontrolled variables involved with fish release in a natural environment, it is simply impossible to assign a survival value. but, if you can point to any study that contradicts my statement, i'd be happy to eat crow :)

[TomB]

well studies have approached this in two ways....both imperfect but both providing ways to approximate mortality that are pretty good. The type of study Smalma mentioned above generally involves catching fish and then releasing them into captivity (sans predators) to observe direct mortality from the wounds of fishing. While this gives a definate and accurate survival rate, it does not account for decreased survival due to predation and competition.

The second type of study is retrospective and looks at how big a run was, how many fish were caught and released, and how big the run is later (after these fish presumably die). Here is a citation for one such study.

Zhou, Shijie. A pipeline model for estimating fishing mortality in salmon mark-selective fisheries. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 24 (3) : 979-989 August 2004

Both this study and the one Smalma linked explain their methods for measuring mortality.

I'm not trying to make you eat crow at all.....I just think its a little extreme to say that studies can't begin to examine c&r mortality...yeah, they aren't perfect, but they aren't so bad either.
-Tom

[gt]

appreciate the model descriptions. as with all things in nature which end up interacting with you and me, we have no way of determining a confidence interval for results from studies such as these.

we have no information regarding the method of angling; time the fish may have been out of the water for a photo; degree of body slim removed during handling/neting; apparent concern by the angler for the fishes well being.......

any information coming from these sorts of attempts, while interesting, should be kept at arms length when discussing 'real' mortality. we simply don't know nor will we ever be able to determine what happened to that fish we released.

that is why i suggested we all practice the utmost care when we fish and modifiy our tactics to help with this mortality issue. that said, i still could not claim that the last steelhead i released after a quick fight, no blood, no touching, lip hooked, survived. we will just never know.

[cascade kid]

I had an interesting and sad experience happen to me quite a few years back.

While shore fishing an estuary in the South Sound I felt something alive bump into my calf. Startled, I looked down to see it was a good sized fish-- a gorgeous coho salmon in prime condition. She was just sort of floundering around, what was wrong with her? I tried my best to revive the fish, but after a protracted effort had to give up as it slowly died. I inspected the fish carefully for injuries, and only found one-- a very small hook prick in the very corner of her mouth-- exactly what you would think would be the most benign place. I elected to take the fish home, and when I opened it up there was not one drop of blood in her body.

It clearly doesn't take much to kill a fish. 10% mortality may seem high to some people, but nobody really knows what happens after a fish disappears back into the water. My guess is that if you see any quantity of blood flowing out of a fish it is going to probably die.

People should show restraint, and not brag about catching dozens of fish in a day. No one cares anyway. Catch a modest number then do something else. Grab your coffee thermos or your camera or your binoculars. Try another method.

There is some great perspective in Bob Arnold's book "Steelhead Water" where he talks about his regret of keeping his first 20 pound steelhead to show off to his friends. To paraphrase, he talks about all killing being serious or "wrong", but the killing we do for food to be "less wrong". Give it a read if you see it. Catch and release has its place, but it is not close to a panacea, and restraint must accompany it. Lets limit our kill.

Thanks,
James

[cascade kid]

x

[Bob Triggs]

Les,

I would fully support an annual/seasonal (winter) closure on Sea-Run Coastal Cutthroat Trout in the saltwater.

I would also like to see more protections for them in freshwater, as I think it is ludicrous to have a harvest moratorium on saltwater Cutthroat runs and then to allow people to target them, (for harvest), in the rivers, where they may be at a more vulnerable point in life.

[Jeff Wood]

One of things I really like about fishing the salt in the winter is it gives me an option when my favorite rivers are not fishing as well (or the pass is unpassable). Plus it is a great change of pace. I was wondering why we should lay off fishing for Sea Runs now vs. some other time of the year?

[gigharborflyfisher]

I really see no reason to stop fishing for cutts in the winter. It is like telling people not to fish for steelhead in the winter or salmon in the fall. They seem to be quite plentiful and as long as they are handled properly there is little damage being done (ie small hooks and minimum handling). Also even when not targeting cutts and going after resident coho you are bound to run into a few cutts here and there, and some times a lot more cutts than the coho.

[Les Johnson]

Folks are just airing ideas and personal thoughts here. Backing off our fishing pressure just a bit might do a great deal of good for the cutthroat. I've never said we should not fish for them. I would favor a couple of months of sanctuary for them though and when an area is closed to salmon, it might be worth investigating a closure on cutthroat during the same period. However, if we can develop a measure of self control and limit our fishing, even catch-and-release, we may be able to keep fishing with no additional mortality on cutthroat, or salmon for that matter. I've been fishing for cutthroat for sixty years and plan to continue until I pass on into that great gravelly beach in the sky.

I guess I feel that it is up to us to save the cutthroat for this and future generations. That is one reason I've written so much about my favorite trout. By getting the spotlight on it there is a tendency not only to want to catch it, but to defend it. The cutthroat needs both. Threads like this one will help.

How does everyone feel about assigning a cutthroat stamp that must be purchased with your annual license? The revenue could be divvied up between the states and BC for studies, habitat restoration and enforcement. For non-residents it could be fairly pricey as far as I'm concerned.
Good Fishing,
Les Johnson

[salt dog]

SRC are one of the most enigmatic andronomous fish in existence. I would gladly pay to play in a heart beat, especially if the cost for an out of state stamp was high.

Equally important, I would like to see at least a temporary moratorium on harvest of freshwater coastal cutthroats. More, and larger, spawners would mean an incredible rebound for the species, to help offset the permanent loss of habit widespread throughout the Puget Sound.

[Mike Etgen]

A special stamp for cutthroat?

It would be a privilege.

[Wayne]

Hooking mortality aside, is there any concern with hatchery coho competing with wild cutthroat in the salt?

[martyg]

Totally into a stamp, as long as those faulkers make sure that the money truly goes where is should and not into someone's pocket or to develop a waterfront park like Doc's has become.

Pave the road and it is over.

[Uncle Jimmy]

I think a stamp is a great idea, but I am not sure it should be issued by the state. The beauty of the cutthroat fishery is that there are virtually no commercial, tribal, or gear fishing interests to contend with. If fly fishers got really active we could do allot. However in the past with salmon and steelhead management angler involvement has from time to time led to some horrendous errors. What about using a voluntary stamp to help fund some starving grad students to do the research we need so we can make correct and informed decisions. Maybe if the stamp ran $100.00 bucks or so and with purchase you got some benefits?. I bet I could sell 10.
My objection to involving the state is I don’t have a lot of faith in there level of fiscal responsibility with cash money ear-marked cutthroat…I would feel much more comfortable dealing with some respected non profits.
What I am suggesting is the stamp to raise seed money to perhaps be added to private grants to really get something started. We have the last fishable population of coastal cutthroat in the lower forty-eight in our backyards, what’s that worth?
Jim

[Jeff Wood]

Thanks for your insight Les. I was just wondering what time of the year would be the best to lay off the SRC's. I am all for a stamp to be dedicated to this fantastic fishery.

[gt]

if someone could come up with the panacia pill i would buy cases. there is no solution to protesting SRCs or any other fishes. this is the age we live in.

consider the WFW group still advocating for wild steelhead kill; consider no guaranteed access below mean high tide; consider collapsed runs of virtually of our anadromous fishes; consider court involvement to force NOAA to reverse on PS orcas; consider global warming (yes it's happening); consider the change in the mining act to give away OUR public lands;..........

this list is long, gloomy and hard to get your arms around. a conservation stamp for a specific unstudied noncommercially valuable species isn't going to produce the intended result.

until or unless WE put people in policy positions who understand that protecting this planet is a top priority, nothing, and i mean nothing, is going to slow or stop the depletion of all of earths resources, including the SRC.

[gt]

x

[Mike Etgen]

gt...

Only speaking for myself here, but I want to clarify that my willingness to support the SRC fishery with an additional stamp was a yes vote on the concept as Mr. Johnson expressed it. There were no details, so to speak, and I'm not one who blindly throws money at a problem or a cause without asking a few questions or at least knowing more of the details, so I think your lecture is a little premature to say the least.

As a concept, yes, I'd gladly purchase an additional stamp to support a valid program to better research, devise and develop a recovered or enhanced SRC fishery. In fact, I'll repeat my earlier sentiment and say I would consider it an honor to do so. I bet you would too.

Would I just "mail it in" to a any individual or organization that "promised" to take care of the SRC fishery for us? No more quickly than I'd mail it in to you.

I might agree with your overall assessment of WDFW motivations and agendas, and wish to see some of the same changes, but I still buy my license every year, hoping that at least some of it supports my sportfishing priorities. Until an "opt-out" checklist is developed, that's all I can do as far as directing my licensing money.

As a concept, I will say I'd love to have that same "opt-out" privilege applied to how my federal tax money is spent, too. But in practice, I don't see that happening in the near future. Still, I support the concept of supporting the efforts of the federal government to protect and serve the citizens, even as I recognize it's not always done my way or to my direct benefit.

Peace.

[gt]

mike, i try and work as hard as i can to influence my elected officials. of course that is swimming uphill most of the time, but they hear from me very often. IF and that is a very large IF, a targetted program were established and supported by a conservation stamp, of course i would purchase such a stamp. but the reality is, and it's a bitter pill to swallow, that is not reality in this decade, and that is my only point.

i should have also pointed to the august 12, 2005 NOAA habitat rule change for NINETEEN stocks of salmon in the PNW. this is the exact political crap that pervades fisheries management. this is not listening to science, it is listening to the national association of home builders lobby.

if we are serious about the SRC or any other anadramous species, the one and only way we are going to have a voice is by forming a PAC with significant financial backing and a very LOUD voice.

[Bob Triggs]

Washington does have a sportsfishing PAC; and it is seeded with industry insiders and others whom promote harvest to support retail sales.:rofl:

[gt]

not surprising bob. goes a long way to explaining the wild steelhead kill ruling's. should also go as no surpise that the regional head of NOAA is also a current board member of the bonneville power administration or that the lawyer who wrote the august 12th ruling is a former lobbyist for the timber industry.

the real question here under the guise of this thread is how do WE take the high ground?

the podium is now open to all speakers.............

[tyler]

good thread. nice to see a departure from the "take-no-prisoners," "rip-some-lips" attitude that seems to have permeated our sport of late.

having seen first hand the demise of a popular game fish species and what good fisheries management can do to revive it, i'm all for more stringent restrictions on SRC, steelhead, salmon, etc...

t