Palmering marabou

[sixfinger]

Can there be too much marabou on a fly? I Have tied up some flesh flys to where the hook was no longer visible. When I was finished I felt like the marabou could get in the way of a proper hook set. I decided to just use a trailing hook that stuck out about a half inch instead.

Anyone ever have a problem with marabou not allowing a hook up?

[Desmond Wiles]

What type of pattern were you tying? I know what you mean by having too much marabou, that it will seem like it's crowding the hook. In cases where you need a big bushy marabou tail, I would increase the hook size and decrease the shank length.

I don't think I've ever had a problem with failed hook ups, because I've never really fished a fly as you've described.

[Ringlee]

Good Call on the trailing hook. Thats how I tie most of my marabou flies now. The marabou will become smaller in the water, but why risk missing a fish. Check the flies out in the water. If you still cant see the hook then you could have problem.

[Jerry Daschofsky]

Been using marabou flies (and jigs) for years. Never once had a problem with a hookset using a bushy marabou fly (and some of the OP flies I'm tying are VERY bushy). If a fish is going to grab it, it's going to push through the marabou and you'll get a hookset. I know that if a fish can bite througha big gob of eggs and get to a hook buried well deep in it, then they can get through the marabou.

[Davy]

I know that if a fish can bite througha big gob of eggs and get to a hook buried well deep in it, then they can get through the marabou.


and the marabou on the shank helps hold the gob of eggs on longer:p

[Hywel]

"Can there be too much marabou on a fly?"

sixfinger,

I'm an advocate of 'less is more' - especially with Marabou. In other words, I try to achieve the illusion of a large fly without the bulk. I also believe that minimizing the volume of materials at (or near) the hook point will actually help decrease short strikes and increase your chances of a better hook set.

Hywel

[Jerry Daschofsky]

LOL Davy. Shhhhh, don't let out my secret. ;)

[Steve Buckner]

I've not had any problems with having too much marabou tied onto a hook as far as hook sets go. That said, IMHO, the number of feathers used is somewhat proportional to the profile you're trying to create. The more densley you pack the feathers, the bigger the profile.

For most of my steelhead/salmon flies, I've tied (2/0 to size 4) using Gamakatsu T10-6H hooks. I like the metal used in these hooks, they hold a point extremely well and will resharpen easily. They are a little spendy.

On the Alagnak river, we tie big flies (using something like a Tiemco TMC 811S 4/0) for chinook, and each hook will get 6-8 marabou feathers tied on it. The chinook on the Alagnak average 25 lbs. or so, although we landed one chrome beauty last season that weighed 42 lbs, caught on a size 4 tiemco. We need the fly to be large because we're often fishing tidal water that may have somewhat low visibility 3-5 feet.

[Hywel]

"The more densley you pack the feathers, the bigger the profile."

Steve,

It's been my experience that density is just that, density - maybe 'mass' would be a better choice of words. I've learned that I can get a very large fly profile without bulk or volume, and it usually yields a fly that fishes better.

I've attached a photo of Bill McMillan's 'Paintbrush' to illustrate my point. I think it's a good example of how a large profile can be achieved without density. I really try to keep that 'less is more' mind-set, especially when working with Marabou.

Please keep in mind that I mean no offense and I'm just offering my opinion.

Hywel

BTW - Are you getting any winter Steelhead near the Clastkanie (sp) area?

[Jerry Daschofsky]

Just curious how often you fish these marabou flies of yours Scotty and on what rivers? Reason I ask, because in all the years I've fished marabou flies and jigs (that's well over 20 years now by the way) I've found that marabou flattens as it gets wet. I know what you're talking about getting a big looking profile off very few feathers (I can get a massive fly with only 2 marabou feathers). Problem is that once wet and really working, that fly will flatten out (turn into a leech actually) unless more feathers are added. I've found my best working flies on heavily silt laden rivers (like the westside OP rivers) have been the flies with 4+ feathers palmered on them. And yes, I have tried "shortcutting" my ties by only adding a couple feathers but having a "dense" look to them. Problem came once they were submerged and worked. They sure looked good out of the water, but once they were run on a heavy sinktip they were very small in profile. Unless you're trying to deaddrift the fly on a floating line, then maybe the less packed fly will work (since marabou can, but not always, flare out when hitting a dead drift). Now, this is from over 20 hardcore years of fishing these flies/jigs. I've found that jigs will fish better with the minimal feathers (since most jigs are fished on a near dead drift) where the flies being "swung" will do better with a bushier profile (with more feathers keeping it open during the swing). There is a difference between tying a fly that looks good above water and a fly that looks good below water.

Your paintbrush is a good example on sparse. But only problem is it was designed for "non glacial" rivers that Bill mostly fished in SW WA and parts of Oregon I do believe. You don't have as bad of glacial silt problems in those rivers then you will, say, in the heavily glacial rivers of the south sound rivers and OP rivers (Puyallup comes to mind quite fast). I've used a paintbrush with success in clearer conditions (and those nice "steelhead green" conditions) but have faired less well in the more heavily silty conditions you'll get say on the OP.

I've attached a jig that only has 3 marabou feathers on it. I've only used two full feathers, and the last was thinned and only used one turn to add just a splash of extra color (the white). But this was done with only 2 full (folded) marabou feathers. Yet, if I was fishing the OP, I'd add at least one more full feather if it was a fly (the jig is fine like it is). Will also HIGHLY agree with Steve with kings. I will REALLY make them bushy. That is one place where a big object comes in handy (a greedy chinook will crush them). Of all the kings I've caught on the fly (mostly in tidal flux areas), that a bushy marabou fly (with multiple feathers) will outfish a sparse fly (and I'm talking heavy takes, not a more subtle lining of the fish). Sorry the pic was blurry, just pulled up an old pic from my desktop, and had no marabou flies saved on this newer computer (old computer crashed and lost most of my old pics).

Also funny how people really push sparse. Funny that these fish (steelhead and most salmon) will go out of their way to crush a K15 kwikfish (roughly 6" long and 2" wide) yet people are worried about having to "big" of a fly. Even a Hotshot SE is bigger then most of the biggest flies used for steelhead, yet they catch alot of fish.

[Hywel]

Jerry,

To each their own, yes?

Hywel

[sixfinger]

Jerry, Thats what I was running into and was kind of the reason for the post. I wanted a big fly with action, and all I had to tie with was marabou. I have found though with a couple of experiments that if I palmered a stiff hackle in first, and then the marabou, it gives the fly a bigger profile in the water.

Otherwise like you said, I end up swinging a pink leach instead of what I had intended

[Jerry Daschofsky]

Sixflinger, I've used that technique too (hackle under the marabou). After a bit, just used more marbou (cheap and easy to tie anyways, just MESSY). Like you though, I usually will swing a leech (unless I need a very thick/longer fiber then most bunny will give me).

Scott, just asking a question, I'm speaking from a fisherman's standpoint who's used them heavily for years. To each their own, yes. I was simply speaking from extensive experience actually fishing the flies and catching fish with them.

[Hywel]

Jerry,

Thanks for offering your perspective(s) - I certainly appreciate it!

Hywel

[Davy]

whaddyuh gotta use to cast that #35 Hotshot, a 12wt? Maybe an 11 if you switch to Siwash's?

[Uncle Jimmy]

Davey, duh, you dont cast a hot shot....just tie it on the leader or your spey rod then put the rod in the rod holder with the tip out over the water 12 feet or so. If thats not far enough you can use a side planer, don't forget the bell on the tip.
Jim

[Davy]

dang, gotchyuh!! thanks Jimmy !!!! I gots lots of them bells, I always am fallin asleep so I need them

[Jerry Daschofsky]

Actually Davy. You only need an 8wt to toss a hot shot. Key is to run straight mono on the reel and to a quick flip of the wrist (with plenty of line stripped out mind you) and away you go. ;)

[Hywel]

Eggs, KwikFish, Jigs, bells, and casting HotShots with a fly rod...

While I am laughing my backside off, I won't rise to the bait, Fellas! :rofl:

Hywel

[Jerry Daschofsky]

Don't laugh. Though I won't do that actually (since I do fish those methods, I use the correct rods for those purposes), I have seen guys who were flyfishing and switched to some "other methods" when they weren't catching fish. I have fishing rods for every situation (backbouncing, jigs, spey, single handed fly, spoon/spinner, mooching, etc), but there are people who just have to catch a fish on a fly rod.

Funny story that goes with it. I was fishing father's day weekend up at Fish Lake with my now Ex Father in Law and Brother in Law. We had our float tubes and were fishing fly rods. They were having no luck, but I was catching my share (not a ton, but had a few on, including one brown). Suddenly, my Father in law said "Fish on". Shocked me, since he never was much of a fisherman (though my exwife claimed him to be the king of fisherman). Next cast, he had another stocker fish. Finally, caught what he was doing. He had a jar of Pautzke eggs in one of his tube pouches. He started tipping his flies with salmon eggs. LOL. Made all the difference in the world with his "technique".

[tightlines]

Good story and better point Jerry. The best fisherman catch fish with whatever resources are available to them including Hot shots and eggs.

[Les Johnson]

For years I've used a "spun" marabou first shown to me by Dan Lemaich at the old Swallow's Nest (presently working at Creekside Angling). This fly is simply a few strands of Flashabou tied in to act as a mini-flashtail one-half inch beyond the marabou. I then spin on one nice marabou plume; tip first. This puts the longest part of the hackle at the front at the tie-off. Before tying off the head I add a collar of hen hackle. It has been a very productive fly for me for more than 15 years. It can be lengthened by sliding short marabou tubes on in front of the hook. This is listed as the Skagit Winter Fly in "Tube Fllies". I have found that the single plume,sparse and lively sinks quickly and swims enticingly with no added shank weight or lead eyes. I've never missed a hookup that I know of with this pattern.
Good Fishing,
Les Johnson

[Hywel]

Les,

Has it been your experience that a sparser fly yields better results, too?

Hywel

[tightlines]

Les,the last time I went into creekside the guy behind the counter (could have been Dan) sketched me a marabou streamer on a scratch piece of paper and you just described it. I have had the best luck with a crystal flash tail, white marabou body, and a red saddle hackle collar. It is an extremely verstile fly. I have caught searuns with it in the salt and fresh water. I have also caught a dolly, juvenile resident silvers, and a pink salmon on it as well.

[Keith Hixson]

When retrieving a marabou fly, watch your speed. You may miss a fish because of speed. Also, shorten the tail if the trout are missing consistently, the tail maybe too long. The amount of marabou won't cause misses unless the tail is too long or you are retrieving or trolling too fast.

K.

[Scott Behn]

I tie'm both ways, but most the time I'll tie them only using half of the shank. The other half has some sort of mixture of materials.

:cool:

[Les Johnson]

Hywel and Tightlines,
In my experience using a nice, full single marabou plume has plenty of attraction and always keels perfectly and swims enticingly. Since it is sparse a standard #2 Gamakatsu steelhead hook will serve to get it down without additional weight of any kind. Dan Lemaich (husky fellow with the remains of his hair tied in a pony tail) probably did sketch it out for you. Dan and I have fished the spun marabou from the Sauk to the Thorne (Prince of Wales Island) to upper McDonald Creek (Misty Fjiords, AK) and have taken steelhead (and lost a few as well) with this pattern. Spun marabous that have worked for us, all with a bit of Flashabou (your choice of color) for a flashtail are:
Black marabou/ Kelly Green hen hackle collar; Hot red/purple hen hackle collar; purple/red hen hackle collar; hot orange/flame orange hen hackle collar; shell pink/ hot pink hen hackle collar.
You can spin a nice marabou plume onto a one-inch length of small HMH plastic tube and slip it onto your leader in front of the fly for a longer dressing. It will still cast easily and sometimes helps in murky water.
One thing to remember when overpacking a hook with marabou is that it will sometimes not keel properly and tend to "slide" sideways as it swings without actually adding all that much attraction. A single plume never fails me. Some tiers put a ball of dubbing or a turn of chenille on the hook behend the marabou to keep it flowing out away from the hook.
Good Fishing,
Les Johnson

[Hywel]

Thanks Les!

One of the elements of a sparser Marabou fly that intrigues me (and fish!) is the 'transparency' you can obtain from using fewer plumes - that, and the movement you alluded to certainly adds a more life-like quality to the fly.

Hywel

[Zen Piscator]

Palmering rabbit strips (zonker style) or rabbit fur in a dubbing loop can give a huge profile when needed, much better than marabou in my opinion. It is heavier to cast however.

Peace,
Andy