Materials -which ones to avoid?

[ChrisW]

Without getting into a debate about the ethics of limiting ones choice of materials, lets assume that I want to make decisions about my material choices with a look of not dealing in threatened species... Given this criteria, what materials should I avoid?

This was prompted by my interest in tying spey style flies using mostly natural materials. (ie dubbing instead of chenille, feathers instead of flash)

I see materials as being in three categories:
Ones that are illegal (heron eagle etc).
Ones that I avoid due to the types of animals they come from (polar bear, fox etc) and,
Other materials that are sustainable either because the wild animal is plentiful (deer, mallard) or because it is a domesticated animal (chicken/turkey).

But what about exotic phaesants? jungle cock? wood duck? mohair? beaver? there are many out there that I just don't know about.

Are there any sources of information that I could base my decisions on?

What materials do you avoid and why?

ChrisW

[Ringlee]

Polar bear is also Illegal in the US.

[mr trout]

Ones that I avoid due to the types of animals they come from (polar bear, fox etc) and,
Other materials that are sustainable either because the wild animal is plentiful (deer, mallard) or because it is a domesticated animal (chicken/turkey).

But what about exotic phaesants? jungle cock? wood duck? mohair? beaver? there are many out there that I just don't know about.

Are there any sources of information that I could base my decisions on?

What materials do you avoid and why?

ChrisW


In regard to fox, I wouldnt worry too much about it. There are areas that are absolutely thick with them, in many cases the Eastern version of our western Coyote populations.
For wood ducks, I would assume that they are being harvested not for just their feathers, and likely are under management anyway by federal regulations. There is also dyed Mallard that can serve as wood duck flank.
Beaver, likewise- most are likely trapped under state regulations set forth by management agencies. We dont have the huge trapping industry today that we had a number of years ago to severely cripple populations. (And a dumb law in Washington...no body gripping traps?! Thats crap...freakin bunny huggers...)
Anyway, short of being illegal, there is really nothing I wont tie with if I think it would be useful. Exotics are more tricky because you can't be sure of how they are being collected in terms of regulations and sustainable harvest etc.

[ChrisW]

I thought Polar bear was illegal too, but I have seen it in stores...very expensive. What is the deal, is it legal to possess older fur from existing stocks? Not that I would buy it or even seek it out mind you, I just couldn't justify using part of an animal like this in an effort to catch a fish. Same goes for seal fur. I doubt i would buy fox, there are so many dubbing materials available, but feathers are another story...

What about jungle cock? These feathers are unique and an integral part of many classic patterns. Many tiers just omit them though, but I am wondering is this based on price, or the rarity of the animal? -And is it a rare domesticated animal or or rare in the wild? I have only bought it once and that was at a going at of business sale and it was still expensive!

I figured a going out of biz sale, they are not going to re-order so I am clear in my conscience...but maybe there is not much reason to worry?:confused:

ChrisW

[Ringlee]

When I was in Canada at a fly shop, they had everything. Polar Bear, Arctic Fox, Seal fur and all sorts of wild stuff. They told me all this stuff was Illegal to have in the US. I didn't buy any. Those animals are rare as it is and I dont feel like tying some flies with animals that might not be here in the future.

[bulltrout19]

I mostly avoid the materials that I cannot readily afford. this does include the more exotic species, jungle cock, mcCaw, and of course the illegals...but what i want to know is why you cannot harvest road kill without a hunting permit. I have done in more rabbits and pheasants that have gone to waste simply because I did not have a hunting license at that time.

[mr trout]

I mostly avoid the materials that I cannot readily afford. this does include the more exotic species, jungle cock, mcCaw, and of course the illegals...but what i want to know is why you cannot harvest road kill without a hunting permit. I have done in more rabbits and pheasants that have gone to waste simply because I did not have a hunting license at that time.

I believe WA law says that roadkill can only be moved by a property owner adjacent to the animal, and that they must dispose of it. There is no use of roadkill allowed. This means no collection of roadkill whether you have a license or not. (I believe that is the interpretation of it)

Now, I think that is bogus. Its already dead, so who gives a frip? The state either leaves them to rot or takes them to a big animal dump where they can rot there. Stupid. Places like MT and I think others have designated roadkill permits. Why doesn't WA? To me it is more wasteful than anything.


In regards to macaw feathers - If you have the need for them, and others for that matter, I recommend striking up a friendship with your local pet store owner. I used to get all sorts of cool feathers that way. The birds woud molt out feathers, and he would throw them in a bag for me and i would pick them up when I went in to get some more crickets for my lizards. Symbiotic relationship....

[hikepat]

Are Macaw feathers something used for much in fly tying. I guess I should not have turned down all the ones offered to me a few years back. I could have had quite a bit before my freinds divorce.

[mr trout]

Are Macaw feathers something used for much in fly tying. I guess I should not have turned down all the ones offered to me a few years back. I could have had quite a bit before my freinds divorce.

Not for me. I dont tie many of the bright patterns for steelhead and salmon. I have seen that a lot of the super intricate wings on atlantic salmon flies use bright blues and yellows, so I would assume you could use them for things like that. I dont have the patience to tie dressings like that though...

[FT]

Polar bear is legal in the US if either of these apply: 1) you can prove it was killed before Janauary 1, 1972 through written documentation; or 2) you are a Native Alaskan Indian or Eskimo with proof of membership in a Native or Eskimo Corporation. Any other polar bear in the US is illegal to posses or use. This is why it is so expensive if you find it in a shop. It is either illegal (which puts the shop owner at risk of huge federal fines of $10,000.00/piece of polar bear and/or 10 years in a federal prison as well), or it is from a bear legally taken before January 1, 1972 and therefore, is a rare commodity.

In Canada, polar bear is entirely legal; however, it is not legal to bring it accross the border into the US.

Jungle cock is raised in commercial hackle operations on a small scale in Canada, the US, and the UK. It is readily available; but good jungle cock necks are pretty expensive because of how small the operations are and how difficult it is too raise an essentially wild bird in captivity. Exect to pay at least $75.00 for a grade C or grade 3 jungle cock neck and up to $150.00 for the best ones.

Blue-eared pheasant, white-eared pheasant, and brown-eared pheasant are all available legally from domestic growers; but again it is expensive because they are not easy to raise and need to be around 3 years old to have good feather size and counts.

Woodduck is perfectly legal as are all other migratory ducks and geese found in the US. However, there are not a lot of barred black and white flank feathers on a woodduck, so expect to pay between $3.00 and $10.00 for them depending on the size of the feathers and how many pair are in the package. Lemon woodduck is also readily available and is cheaper than the barred stuff simply because there are more of the unbarred lemon feathers on a duck.

Fox is entirely legal to possess in the US. That goes for any of the foxes from the common reds and greys to the more exotic ones like artic fox and silver fox.

Macaw is pretty much only used on full dressed, and married wing classic salmon flies. Although a few fibers of a blue & yellow macaw wrapped on a hook as a body makes for a pretty good imitation. it is expensive though because it comes from domestic birds when they molt, unless you know someone with a macaw or have found a pet store that has one that will collect the feathers for you.

[earlsmith]

This whole discussion begs the question of being purist in your tying, natural vs synthetic, and if it works, IE fools a fish, then it will be a suitable tying material, I don't condone the exotic nature of some of what has gone before, I do think there are suitable substitutes, for that matter, superior man made options, but I think the fish to the net is what counts, and I let them go in the hope that my son can take his son and fish the rod I built =).

[Keith Hixson]

You have to sneaky in stealing yarn from your wife's knitting yarn collection. If you get caught stealing yarn you may end up in the dog house.

K.

[fredaevans]

"K" makes a good point. It's truely amazing the amount of 'fly fishing stuff' you can find at large craft stores like Michaels (sp?) Better yet, it's usually at a fraction of what you'd pay at a fly shop.:cool:

[Tony]

I called the wdfw once long ago on the subject of roadkill, this was when I first got into tying and I was told that if its for your own personel use any mammal on the side of the road is pretty much fair game but birds are totally off limits, since then I've skinned, just about every varmit type creature that is found in our state, I've never messed with bears or deer just too big. One thing to keep in mind though,its really alot easier just to go and buy it.
tony
sorry for the side track