Need advice with Copper John

[Jeff Hale]

If you take a look in Zen's gallery, he has a picture of a really nicely tied Copper John. Mine catch fish, but they don't come out looking like I want. When I tie in the wire, I lay it along the shank, wrap thread back to the tail and the head again, and then wrap the wire forward. However, my wraps of copper are not perfectly circular. Because of the wire laid parallel along the shank, my wraps of copper wire, even though right next to each other, come out more oval or sometimes lobsided looking on one side, depending on which angle you look at it. Any advice? I would like the copper wire to look like it is wrapped over the bare shank with nothing underneath it. The only thing I can think of doing is buidling up an underbody with the thread that smooths and evens the diameter out with respect to the full 360 degree view of the fly. Although, I do not want a large underbody. How do you guys tie yours? Help? Thanks, Jeff :o

[chadk]

I've been taking a short length of wire, then starting the wrap near the middle of the fly and near the middle of the wire and work out from that point. Just like i'd do if I was wrapping on lead for weight. Then you just have to deal with the ends. I try to cut it tight and at a 45 degree angle on both tips, then use tiny pliers or hemostats to gently grab and twist to tighten and flatten the last wrap \ end point. one end is usually up against or under the thorax section anyway, so no biggie. The other end can then have some thread or floss built up if you want.

[Jeff Hale]

Thanks Chad, that makes sense. So basically, the copper is only secured to the shank under the thorax up front, and in the back you wrap a little thread to bind it down? Is that right? jeff

[earlsmith]

I have never had a problem with the method metioned above, with a tight wrap and a push from rear to head when done wrapping, it lays really smooth, I do start by laying a thread base to the hook, leaving the bobbin at he head when done.

[chadk]

right. A thread base and then scrunch the wire tightly together after wrapped. Probably don't need any thread on the back end if you can cut it at an angle and crimp it down neatly. I'm sure there is probably a cleaner way - but this is what i've done so far...

[Old Man]

Here is another way,but not the best advice. Try smashing the end of the wire and tie it in at the end of the fly and wrap foward. I did this and it got rid of the hump. Plus my flies don't look like Zens either, but I'm gonna have to try them sooner or later.

Jim

[bigtj]

For copper johns to come out right you've got to lay a nice even thread base that's tapered and conical. I just make a few wraps on the hook, tie in the wire, then start laying a thread base. By the time I'm done I have a rear-facing cone that is about one wire diameter thinner than what I want the body diameter to be. Then when I wrap it the body comes out great, nice and tapered. Make sure the body extends into the thorax area, and cover this part of the body with the thorax, otherwise you'll get a gap you don't want between the two. For larger flies (size 12 and larger) I start with heavier thread, like flat waxed nylon, which makes it much faster to get my thread base completed. Then I switch to 8/0 unithread to finish the fly so my tie-off point doesn't get too bulky.

Also, I've found that agnel hair, ice dub, or flashabou dubbing makes a superior throax over peacock. Quicker to tie and the fish really like it. I don't use partride legs, if I do tie in legs I use rubber legs.

Good luck, there's more than one way to get things the way you want them,

-John

[sixfinger]

sounds like the oval problem is covered but there's a little tip thats pretty useful that has been left out. before you wrap the wire body, leave the thread at the end of the fly. when you wrap always wrap behind the thread hanging down. It will automatically scrunch your wraps together nice and tidey.

[earlsmith]

an option to tying copper johns, is to lay the copper first, then tie everything on top of and over the copper. The end result can be deadly, and using a split biot tail, or a hair tail, or pheasant tail, all work very well, I will try to post a fly in my gallery that exemplifies what I'm trying to say, it was my alternative to the traditional tying method of starting at he rear (with the tail) and having to wrap copper over this starting method, and it ended up being a faster tie, and very effective with this nymph pattern.
Respectfully

Earl Smith

[fredaevans]

Take a peek here; step by step colour photo's of the copper john construction.

http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/board/showthread.php?t=30703