left handed tyers/unwinding thread

[Allison]

I notice sometimes that the thread is unwinding as I tie. What I mean is that the tying thread itself starts to look more like floss--the individual strands become visible as the twist in the thread is removed. I strongly suspect that this is because I am left-handed and the thread is laid (twisted) clockwise, yet the action of tying left-handed is counter-clockwise so it unwinds the thread.

Is this what I am seeing? Is it a problem? If so, is it better to reverse how you wrap the thread, or just to learn to tie right-handed? Hopefully this is not a serious problem and I can just keep tying and unraveling the thread as I do it, but if it's going to noticeably compromise the fly, I should relearn now rather than after the habits are ingrained. At my work, I have to do everything right-handed because ropes are made the same way.

[crobarr]

don't know if it will affect anything, though i suspect it won't as long as the thead isn't spreading all about. i do know that some tyers (think classic salmon flies here) purposely unwind there thread to get a smooth head on the flies they tie.

if it bothers you, there are threads that aren't twisted so it won't matter.

[Mike Etgen]

Allison...

I'm left-handed and until you mentioned it, hadn't thought that what I sometimes see was a by-product of being a lefty. I do sometimes see this unwinding in thread, but more so when I'm winding floss, sometimes to the point I have to "rewind it" as I get ready to tie if off with thread - and I really have to go slowly to get a nice, even laying down of material.

If it's any consolation, I can't say it's affected any of my flies to the point I'd EVER attempt to go right-handed. Like any other lefty, I've made some accomodations when I've needed to, but I think my tying would suffer greatly if I tried to reverse hands. And, in my opinion, reverse-wrapping (wrapping under-away and over-back) would introduce other complications.

It's just my opinion and experience, but I think I do pretty well as a lefty. My flies probably won't win any prizes, but they're decent enough to keep me going, and to continue to enjoy it.

[troutpocket]

I'm also a lefty and generally need to re-wind my thread once while tying each fly. I also use Uni-thread quite a bit which doesn't have the "floss" like structure of most tying thread. . .but doesn't lay down as flat either.

Rod

[Allison]

Great info guys. I'm actually in the process of putting in a pretty good sized order of miscellaneous Uni-threads totally coincidentally. They sure make some cool stuff!:D

[Mike Etgen]

troutpocket...

I'm curious what you mean by rewinding your thread. I'm assuming unless you say otherwise that you have to "retwist" your thread to get all the strands back together? If so, I've never thought to do that, even when I get to a place where the thread has started to "unravel" - if that word makes sense. Until Allison's post, I never even thought that it might have something to do with being a lefty...

[Allison]

Thread and rope that's constructed in the laid (twisted) manner is always laid clockwise. If you use a laid line left-handed, it will naturally untwist. What I've noticed tying left-handed is that the thread starts to look "strandy" rather than "twisty" after I've made many wraps. It's probably most noticeable in my case because I'm new at tying, so I'm tying big patterns like WBs and also probably adding a lot of extra wraps because I'm not tying very proficiently yet.

A tyer might notice this and try to re-twist the thread back into the proper shape of thread. I do know that the untwisting weakens laid lines, which is why in my work, I have to do everything right-handed. Imagine if laid 3/4 manila rope were handled in the left-handed manner time and time again. Eventually the rope would be a complete mess, and would not really be a rope any more.

I kind of doubt that a fly is going to disintegrate because it's tied left-handed, but I asked the question because it was curious and I wanted to confirm what I thought I was seeing. Obviously in cases where there are significant loads on the line (as in rope or aircraft cable) this might be a more serious consideration.

[Mike Etgen]

Allison...

Thanks for the explanation. I don' think until I started tying flies three or so years ago that I ever would have had the opportunity to see this and I hadn't connected to to being left handed. It never occurred to me that threaded rope, cabling, etc., is always twisted the same way - obviously another convention that's taken for granted in the right-handed world. When my thread starts to unravel, as it sometimes does, I've just shrugged and continued...

Does this explain why my heavy extension cords end up in such a mess when I rewind them into a coil between my shoulder and elbow? Hmmm...

Maybe, just in the flytying world, we should go back to the good old days when lefties were FORCED to do things like normal people. Just for grins, here's a limited number of things I do right-handed:

Use scissors
Swing a basebal bat or golf club
Retrieve a fly line (handle on right side of reel...maybe righties do that too?)

Again, to both of y'all, thanks. Next time my thread comes apart, I'll know what's going on and retwist it - good idea!

[Allison]

If you are winding your electrical cables counterclockwise, then yes, that's why they get all messed up. Inside the insulation of that orange cord, there are three wires, green, black and white. They are wound clockwise. Inside green, white and black, there are strands of copper wire. They are also wound clockwise.

See why you gotta coil that orange cable clockwise now?:hmmm:

[Minx]

Allison, don't know whether it's a problem or not. I'm always spinning the bobbin to either flatten or tighten the twist of the thread. Being aware of what the thread is doing should be enough to get you through. For me, I'm always giving the bobbin a spin counterclockwise, for you south paws, I'd imagine a spin clockwise should work.....anybody ever see a lefthanded butter knife? :rolleyes:

[troutaholic]

Hi Allison, I'm also a lefty but I've never even thought about whether I tie right or left handed (how the heck are you supposed to be able to tell?) since it always seemed to me that neither hand has a dominant role in fly tying. In any case, on smaller flies I often untwist the thread to get it to lay flatter for smaller wraps. Other times I'll throw a half hitch in whenever I notice the thread unwinding too much and then give the bobbin a twist. Sometimes forming a soft loop is easier if the thread is unwound as well since it doesn't seem to kink up as easily.....

[Mike Etgen]

Here's how I would define it:

If you're a lefty, you set the vise up so that the jaw is to your right. The head of your typical fly will be on your left as you face the vice. You wind with and handle the bobbin with your left hand most of the time.

Better yet, read the instructions that come with practically any fly, and look at the pictures (or video). If you're doing everything bass-ackwards from that, you're a lefty!

Then again, you may be truly ambidextrous... do your flies have two heads? or two butt ends? :confused:

:beathead:

[TheShadKing]

Thread and rope that's constructed in the laid (twisted) manner is always laid clockwise.

You obviously know this stuff.

What I would point out is that I've never seen in print a reason why one should tie (for a right handed tyer) back over top, forward under bottom (relative to the hook.) I would think that _somebody_ would have figured this out and published the reason that it's institutionalized. :)

But it is institutionalized. Anyway, it's an easy experiment: us righties will tie in the opposite direction, as will you lefties, and we'll see if we come up with more or less untwisting of the thread. If the winding (when the thread is made) is unwinding (when wrapped on the hook) is correlated, then we should see dramatic differences when we all swap. Allison less, us more.

I'm happy to tie some flies this way, but I'm guessing that this isn't the problem. I know I used to have more problems with the thread flattening (which isn't an issue in and of itself, but it makes the thread more likely to separate & tear.)


Rolland

[Mike Etgen]

Allison...Had my 100' cord out yesterday since I was trimming the lawn, and rewound it opposite from usual - sure enough made a difference. A few more unwinds and rewinds and it'll be like new!

[Allison]

You obviously know this stuff.

I do. I don't know about fly tying, I'm new to it, but I've been a stagehand for a really long time and the "lay" is something you care about briefly until you understand the concept and then forget it. This is an interesting discussion, and please don't let me derail it, but I think I answered my own question with my post and it was definitely confirmed after seeing a few posts from lefties.

The more I think about it, the less I see it being an issue. I'm glad I asked though, because I have not started tying small patterns where it might matter yet, and the idea of flattening or rounding the thread depending on what you are doing makes really good sense to me.

I hope I don't sound like a kissass when I say I'm always impressed with the information I get here--it's a great site.:thumb:

Now, if anyone is still reading, do you have any suggestions for good patterns to learn to get more skills? So far I am staying with the big (Wolly Bugger) and the simple smaller stuff. What would be a few good patterns to learn to get some more tricks? I need to learn to tie some dry flies as spring settles in, and it would be helpful for me to ease in on the really small stuff with a few really easy chronomid or midge type patterns. I have some good books with pictures, just not sure what are going to be good "learning" patterns that are also useful. One I like is Griffith's Gnat as it looks like some of the midges I'm seeing hatching on the lakes, especially if they are brownish. Is that a pretty good one for me to learn next?

[_WW_]

If this unraveling becomes a problem you might try reversing the direction that you wrap. Years ago when I first started tying I was winding the thread the "wrong" direction and decided to retrain myself after some good natured ribbing from more accomplished tyers.

[cabezon]

Hi Allison,

Greetings from another southpaw tier. As an adult midge fly, may I suggest the Lady McConnell, a pattern developed by Brian Chan, a legend of Kamloops lakes. I found a nice description of the pattern at www.fedflyfishers.org/fom/53c9-xyy55.cgi?FlyName=LADY. For a midge pupa, snowcones are effective (brown, black, olive, red) or similar patterns. I tie mine with clear glass beads with white ostrich to represent the gills; they are pretty quick to tie.

Among staple dry flies, elk hair caddis are effective in lakes and in moving water (tie several body colors and sizes); it would give you experience with handling hair patterns. Parachute adams is a good imitation for Callibaetis and is also effective in moving water; parachutes can be a pain, but I usually tie a dozen in a size 12 or 14 to warm up before moving to smaller sizes. One of the easiest (and yet killer) patterns (like CDC emergers) are those using CDC as wings; I often use a double fly rig with an elk hair caddis or adams as the top fly and a CDC emerger as the point fly. Finally, Quigley cripples can be effective as a mayfly pattern, especially if the trout are being very picky or its early in the hatch.

Steve

[TheShadKing]

do you have any suggestions for good patterns to learn to get more skills? So far I am staying with the big (Wolly Bugger) and the simple smaller stuff. What would be a few good patterns to learn to get some more tricks?

I have the following suggestions -- they're worth what you paid for 'em. :rofl: But basically I don't think it matters in what order you learn to tie patterns. That is, the best way to get better in a short time isn't to worry about picking the "next best pattern" to learn to tie, but to tie any pattern, only on incrementally smaller and smaller hooks. Say tie three or four of each size, not going down to the next hook size until you've tied at least two good ones.

I still do this (I've been tying 4 years or so) when I'm learning or creating a new pattern. It's amazing the confidence / learning that goes on when you go from a size 12 to an 18 in a dozen or so flies.

Dave Hughes' book "Trout Flies: the Tier's Reference" is available from the King County Public Library, and you can pick through it for some flies you want to tie. The Griffith's gnat you mentioned is a great fly to tie, a perfect pick since you've been tying wooly buggers and it's basically a dry wooly bugger. The nice thing about this book is that covers the classic patterns, but has detailed instructions for each fly. So you can figure out techniques as well as patterns from it.

If you started that in a size 14 (not too big for the gnats at my house!) and went down to a size 20 I bet you'd be pretty psyched about your flies in just a dozen or two flies.

Also, keep posting results and asking questions. I'm more active on a different board, but I've learned tons here and from the other board ... and as you've noted the people here are great. For instance, I would venture that when you tie the 'Gnat, you're going to run across a couple of problems:

1.) the herl will break
2.) the gap will be too small in the smaller hooks
3.) it'll be tougher to tie the size 20 hook with 6/0 threads.

We've all been through these, and there's several answers to each one of them, and (IMHO) no one answer is correct. For instance, you can address the hook gap issue at least four ways:

1.) going to a shorter hook of the same type, i.e., stay with a dry fly, but go to a shorter hook.
2.) sort of like one, but switch to a "big gape" hook.
3.) switch to a light wire scud hook, which combines both #1 and #2, but switches shape as well.
4.) have somebody tell you that if you go pick out peacock swords, you can find ones that have very short barbules that won't crowd the gap.

Is one of these right? Wrong? There's only (again IMHO) two answers you should care about: 1.) what you think; and 2.) what catches fish. As you run into problems, you'll figure out what solutions work for you. (but of course I do both #3 and #4. :beer2:)

I hope that's not a too obnoxiously long answer to your question!


Rolland

[Allison]

Great tips. I'm tying Griffiths Gnats in about an 18. Pretty small for me, but with the silly reading glasses, not tough at all. The pattern I'm tying clips the hackle top and bottom, so hackle size is less of a consideration, though I am not sure how to eyeball/measure hackle length on the small flies....? It seems like no feather is small enough for these midget flies in terms of hackle.

[speyfisher]

Anyone who has grown up left handed has had to learn to adapt to a right handed world. Some things like scissors, golf, bowling, just do not readily lend themslved to lefties.
I've known some pro tyers that tied lefthanded. Watch any tyer who knows what they are doing, and you will notice they spin the bobbin after a few wraps. Doesn't matter left or right, they will spin the bobbin to compensate for what happens to the thread as they wrap. Sometimes they will spin in a direction to unwrap, or flatten the thread. Sometimes the opposite direction to tighten it up. Depending on what they want to accomplish.
However, when it comes to Peacock herl, it is a different matter. Look at a Peacock herl under a magnifying glass and you will see that the stem is shaped like an airplaine wing, with the little fuzzies growing out of the trailing edge. Pull one off each side of the main stem of the feather and you will see that they are mirror images. For winding on a hook, Griffith gnat style, you can only use those from one side of the feather. Use the wrong side, or wrap in the wrong direction, and you will wrap the stem over the fuzzies. Adapt, or loose half the feather.

[Minx]

Allison,

[Minx]

Hmmm....stupid computer tricks here, try this again:
Allison, trust me on this, I'm no pro when it comes to learning to tie flies, BUT I've found just tying whatever you want seems to teach you the fastest. Whenever I pick something to tie and it comes out really scary, it just tells me to go read how to do it right, learn the right steps, get the right materials, and lo & behold it seems to come out right. Size doesn't seem to matter, technique does though and challenging yourself to try is the first step. From a size 24 Black Nose Dace to a big saltwater clouser, just go out & play....I don't think there's any order to learn....chuck

[Tony]

I'm confused I'm a lefty and I taught myself to tie flies, I've always wrapped clockwise (under away from me over towards me as I face my fly with the eye on my left) I've never had a problem with the thread unfurling perhaps I'm tying incorrectly I don't know but hey what does it matter, I mean really, my flies look just like everybody elses in the end and seem to work the same, they catch fish.

[Allison]

You're definiely tying in the opposite direction of me. I go up and away, down and toward me. I assume most people go up and away and down and toward, or else unwinding thread would be a problem for righties instead of lefties.

[TheShadKing]

I assume most people go up and away and down and toward, or else unwinding thread would be a problem for righties instead of lefties.

That's the instutionalized pattern, fer sure! iagree

[earlsmith]

Lefties UNITE!!!!!!

I do spin the bobbin when I need the line to lay tight,or come back together, a little wetting of the line helps too and I was under the assumption that this phenomena happened to all fly tyers.....never been a problem though, it's actually desirable now and again, and I do think that it tends to happen w a larger diameter thread, I try to tie with as fine a thread as the size of fly will allow

Earl

[earlsmith]

I tied my way through Randle Kaufnman's Books. The Wet fly and The Dry Fly, I borrowed them from a buddy, then bought them. They do teach you order of materials, tying from back to front, tips and tricks to managing materials, very well illustrated, ect. I spend two days at the show at the Meydenbauer every year picking the brains of the tyers who attend, it never hurts to get the instruction "live". Participate in round tables at fly shops or in your local club, it's actually alot of fun and you learn something and meet good people. Maybe I will volunteer to host a Sunday afternoon round table or something see if we get any interest......

Earl

[Kent Lufkin]

My mother-in-law's a lefty too. Here's some stuff she's regaled me with over the years:

In case you've ever wondered why the opposite of being left-handed is called 'right' handed ('right' in this case as a synonym for 'correct'), the word 'left' in most Romance languages shares the same Latin root as the word 'sinister'. Our European serf ancestors took a jaundiced view of people who used the wrong hand to eat with!

Left-handed people have about a 10% shorter life expectancy than normal - oops! - I meant right-handed folks! Why? Because the world is designed for righties. Such mundane stuff as operating the gear shift lever on a car is just a bit more challenging and less reflexive or intuitive for lefties.

If you think about it, how easy would it be for you to learn how to fly cast using the opposite hand?

K

[Allison]

Yes, Kent, I know about all of that. it's especially irritating when righties try to lord over lefties because lefties are more "accident-prone" because they are using right-handed stuff, like oh, I don't know, cooking utensils, desks, power tools, anything that's "ergonomic" like my ergo mouse. which is very nice, but it's right-handed ergo...leaving me with the option of mousing right handed or using it very "un-ergonmically" with my right hand. The last time I bothered going to my fly casting class, they asked me why I was casting left-handed. That's when I knew I was done. Iddjits.

Kudos to Seth at Creekside Seattle for being so cool as to turn the vise around backwards and tie left-handed for my tying class, so I could learn it the "right" way for me.

[Allison]

Maybe I will volunteer to host a Sunday afternoon round table or something see if we get any interest......

I'd be game for that, even more so if you did it on an evening during the week.

[Minx]

How do you cast lefthanded? There are some things out there for you southpaws that are neutral.....like bikes with training wheels, safety scissors, tablespoons. We right handed Barons are looking out for y'all...... really. Question, can you use a lefthanded chair at a right handed desk? :rolleyes: :confused:

[Allison]

How do you cast lefthanded?

Just like a right-handed caster, only with the rod in the other hand.

Question, can you use a lefthanded chair at a right handed desk? :rolleyes: :confused:

Apparently it's technically possible, but I've heard of people getting weird headaches from it. That said, it's widespead in Asia, with no apparent problems. Go figure.

[Minx]

I've heard of people getting weird headaches from it

...and I thought it was just a hangover. Hmmmm....I better check the bottom of the chair :beer2:

[Minx]

Oh yeah, I go to the hill on Wednesday for a week of trout fishing, I'll try the left handed thing.......news at eleven :)

[Nooksack Mac]

Allison,

I don't think that tying dry flies is such a daunting task that one has to progress cautiously through the learning cycle. In an introductory fly fishing class at a local university last year, we taught beginners to tie Adams as their first dry fly. That's not the simplest dry pattern, but the students coped with elevating and separating the little hackle-tip wings, and winding two different colors of hackles nicely, which brought them to the point where they could cope with most dry fly patterns.

I think that a great dry pattern to learn from, as well as to fish, is the Tom Thumb. (Why this very effective, simple dry is so ignored in the States, even here, close to its home in B. C., is a mystery - or a clue to the power of cultural norms.) The Tom Thumb will quickly teach you proper proportions, and lets the beginner bypass hackle-winding.

[Allison]

Here's another annoying feature of left handed fly tying. The open end of the hook faces away from you if you are tying left-handed. making it easier to slip the thread into the opend eye. I always get to caught on the first wraps, when tying off the thread, and once or twice per fly after that.

Pretty annoying--any easy fixes for that?

[Minx]

....and now for the Eleven O'clock News.....yes, right handers can cast lefthanded :)