Nor-Vise Learning Curve?

[Southsound]

I recently came to own a Nor-Vise as I find myself tying lots more nymphs and dries than big streamers these days and wanted to see if there will be an advantage to using a Nor-Vise. I have an older model which I am going to upgrade but in the meantime my version of the vise has the spindle which is used to tighten the hook. I have Mr. Norlander video which I will watch when I get a chance, but I was hoping that some other Nor-Vise users might have some advice to pass on to someone who hasn't used the Nor-Vise system as yet. Looking forward to your insights...

Thanks All

Steve Cole
Tumwater, WA

[Philster]

The learning curve is HUGE! But the reason is that there are so many things it will do that are unique. Don't get discouraged, it'll take a looooooooooong time before you come close to mastering the vise, but your woolies will immediately improve in quality, and by about 20 percent in speed right off the bat! Epoxy is a breeze. big saltwater patterns are awesome. Nymphs... It just works!

Biggest thing to watch out for at first is on smaller nymphs make sure you don't wrap wire ribbing over the hookpoint. You'll see what I mean.

Also, you don't need to "upgrade" your vise. The jaw you have works great. I know, I have it. The cam version is for better market acceptance. Watch the video and understand the way you are supposed to mount the hook. It works great!

[Don Stracener]

I didn't find the learning curve HUGE. I watched the movies a couple of times and tied a couple hundred flies! :rofl: :rofl:

I have four other vises and now that I have the Nor-vise the others just don't measure up.

I had the old jaws and your right Philster they work good. The wheel was a pain for me and I like the new jaws much better.

Using some of Norm's tips from the DVD the files my flies hold up better and look better.:thumb:

[Don Johnson]

Here are mt thoughts/recommendations, for what they're worth:

1) to take full advantage of the vise system, you have to use the automatic bobbin. You can tie without an AB but it won't be as efficient.

2) getting accustomed to the bobbin, for me, was more of a pain than learning rotary tying techniques. I really exercized my vocabulary every time the thread would be sucked back onto the spool because I clipped without holding on...but eventually I got it down.

3) get some cheap hooks, surplus materials and sit down for a few hours and practice applying dubbing to the thread, then the hook...try hackling and applying a rib or tinsel body. My point here is to not worry so much about tying a particular pattern, just practice the techniques. There will be a lot of wasted materials in the process but I think you'll find this will pay dividends when it comes to tying an actual fly later on.

4) to prevent yourself from regressing back to the type of tying you are comfortable with, box up your other vise and put it away somewhere that you can't easily get to it so you are 100% forced to tie with nothing bt the NorVise. I had to force myself in this manner; you may have more patience and resolve than I so you may not need such extremes. In my case, after I had mastered the NV, I found it uncomfortable tying on anything but the NV and that's all I own now.

PM me if you have any other questions.

[Southsound]

thanks all for that feedback. Don... I will be PM-ing you from time to time if that's OK.

I picked up a newer version of the Nor Vise this weekend with the spindle locking screw and the cam locking jaws. Anticipating locking away my "old" bobbins, I bought 3 more spools and the spool threading accessory so my with those additions, I now have a half-dozen spools for the auto-bobbin.

Has any one ever written a book covering tying techniques on the Nor Vise?

More later as I progress.

Thanks

Steve

[fredaevans]

Having seen Don's Nor-V on several occation .. I can assure you he runs through a LOT of feathers with that thing. Humm ... wonder where he hides his 'out side' key?

[Don Stracener]

Hey Fred!

The Nor-Vise does have a lot of feathers and fur run through it.

If you don't have it get Norm's DVD on the Nor-Vise. He will throw one in if you order something, I think. It's a good DVD and will speed you up a lot.

Don

[Grey-Sedge]

Sorry guys, I have a lot of friends that tie with the nor vise and automatic bobbin system but I just can't buy into the hype. Tried it for several years and now I'm back to the standard bobbins and vises. Though I must admit my friends loved the sale prices I gave them on the equipment. It looks cool to dub the bodies with the vise but it is time consuming and can be done faster by standard methods. Having to spool all my threads on the bobbin is a pain and you had better not use a 200 yd spool, (you automatic bobbin guys know why). for some of us the old fashioned ways just seem to work better. If I have a lot of flies to tie, the more normal vises and bobbin work better for me.

[Hywel]

G-S

"I just can't buy into the hype."

There's no 'hype'. Either you're able to tie with a NorVise and Auto-Bobbin or you're not.

"It looks cool to dub the bodies with the vise but it is time consuming and can be done faster by standard methods."

Really? I'd be willing to wager much that it'd take me much less time to completely dub the shank of a 3/0 iron with a NorVise than it would for most people to cover the shank of size #8 hook using 'traditional' methods.

Here's another challenge. Do you think, using hand-over-fist tying techniques and a traditional vise and bobbin, that you can dress 500 Miracle Caddis's in a scant 23 hours?

Hywel

[Grey-Sedge]

Ouch! sorry for my opinion, didn't know you'd had such a bad day :)

[Don Stracener]

One thing about the Nor-Vise, it's not 'everybody's' vise! :rofl:

I love mine, tied over a thousand flies on a standard vise before I switched to a Nor-Vise. :thumb:

The auto bobbin, and true rotary features work good for me. I had to break some old habits to get the Nor-Vise do what it does best, faster and better flies. I think it's the break old habits part that gets some people. A new person on a Nor-Vise could learn the way it works and just kick.

Go to an event were someone that knows how is using a Nor-Vise and you'll see it's not hype.

[Hywel]

Ouch! sorry for my opinion, didn't know you'd had such a bad day :)

GS

No need for you to apologize for your opinion - and you're certainly entitled to express it.

I was merely rebutting some rather broad-brush comments you made about the NorVise, nothing more.

On an aside; I don't have bad days - however, some days are better than others.

Hywel

[Don Johnson]

Gray Sedge,
I fail to see the hype but everyone's got their own perspective on things. As for the comments about faster, there are other qualities about the NV system (vise + bobbin) that need to be taken into consideration not the least of which are ease and consistency, especially when working with problematic materials such as seal and some of the really stiff synthetics....but to each their own. I find the NV system much more of an asset with certain materials and techniques and choose not to be hobbled by antiquated methods promulgated over and over and over. Show me something new and fresh.

And, FYI, it is entirely possible to put 200+ yards of thread on a NV spool...you just have to be selective as to the thread diameter and twist you are trying to load; i.e. 10/0 vs. 3/0 and flat not simple rope twist. If tying on a standard vise, there's no reason to use an AB because there's no gain as a result of never (or rarely) going to and from a threadpost (or bobbin rest). For most rotary techniques I employ on a NV, there's no way a standard bobbin would be practical. Since you've tied on one of these systems you know this already though.

The comical thing is that at one time the old fashioned was new. Where would we be if people were afraid to embrace the Thompson A or a bobbin or scissors instead of a lance? Food for thought...

"You can have my Nor-Vise when you pry my cold, dead fingers away from it!"
(as repeated by the Prez of the National Riffle Association)


I propose a change from Hywel to Hypwel. In light of the way this thread is going it may be fitting. I'm with you man!

DoJo

BTW...for the record, it was 501.

[Daryle Holmstrom]

Right now I use the auto bobbin, but it's too early to order my norvise christmas present. Does he have sales during the holiday season?

Daryle

[Southsound]

Hmmm... to digress I guess, I have been using the NV now for about a month and a half, and have concluded that for me, personally, a "conventional" rotary vise seems to be a better fit, particularly for the larger streamer and spey/salmon flies that I seem to tie more of. Since I tie dries and nymphs pretty much for personal consumption, the time involved is not so much factor. I did try an afternoon of building dubbing ropes and to that end, the NV definitely has it's place. For now though, since the "SSS" season is looming (Salt, Salmon & Steelhead), I am going to get another Dyna King or an HMH... either the HMH standard bench vise or the DK Professional model... and return to the "norm".

That said, when I can afford to have a selection of vises in my cache, I will definitely make one of them a Nor Vise because there are certain techniques that prove it's worth. In the meanwhile, I will make someone a great deal on a used, "late model" NV with an auto-bobbin and a half-dozen spools.

Half the fun for me in fly tying is the experimentation with styles of patterns, finding new techniques to adopt and apply, and generally enjoying the time I spend at the vise. The other half of course is taking the flies I build and actually catching fish with them.

Thanks all for the feedback.

Steve Cole
Tumwater, WA

[Don Johnson]

Hmmm... to digress I guess, I have been using the NV now for about a month and a half...

Half the fun for me in fly tying is the experimentation with styles of patterns, finding new techniques to adopt and apply...


Unless you were tying every night and never reverting back to using any other vise, it doesn't seem like a long enough time to become proficient with all the capacity the system offers...but that's just an opinion based on the experiences of a guy who's not the sharpest tool in the shed and can barely tie his own shoes.

To address your affinity to experimentation, there's nothing better to be using (once again in my opinion) than a Nor-Vise system (vise and bobbin). Construction of things like spun dubbed bodies, furled bodies and stingers, ropes, to name a few, is possible with the NV and either difficult or practically impossible with other vises, especially traditional versions (Thompson A, HMH, etc.). For me and those I know that have "mastered" the system, it turns the difficult into the rudimentary, opens the door to materials and techniques experimentation and increases efficiency, consistency and proficiency.

With all that said, the real gem behind all this discussion is that we have tons of choices which is good because what's great for one is the bane of another's existence.


When time allows, take a gander:
http://www.geocities.com/salmn8r/rotarytechniques.html

[Don Stracener]

Southsound

For large streamers and saltwater patterns a large arbor is available for the Nor-Vise. Using the small arbor or the large one the vise is can be used just like a 'normal' vise. This gives you a chance to ease into the Nor-Vise method.

Might be more cost effective than getting another vise.

[Shane Atwood]

I bought Steve's Nor Vise and love it. Thanks Steve!

I will admit that I am new to tying (9 mos) and probably don't have many of the 'old habits' to break. I will agree it is a little frustrating when the thread snaps back into the bobbin when I cut it :mad: Maybe I will learn.

Steve had lost the video that came with the vise, so I emailed Norm and asked about buying one and also a couple of the o-rings. Norm is putting them in the mail to me on Monday at no charge.

Everyone has their own personal tastes. I will use the Nor Vise for the same reason I use Weber grilling products. Execellent Customer Service.

Keep on Tying!

[Don Johnson]

thewood87,
Don't forget, as I had written in another post:

"Remember, you're not alone. The Brotherhood of the Nor-Vise may not be large but we're generous and if you run into difficulties, have questions or get frustrated...let us know. All of us have been there and realize that if you stick with it long enough to obtain mastery of the system, the benefits will far outweigh the costs associated with the learning curve."

Regards,
Don

[luckybalbowa]

I have been thinking of upgrading to a rotary vise, with the norvise in mind.

But, I have a question for the norvise vets out there, how is the vise for tying small flies? I would say that at least 70% of my flies are sized 18-26. any ad"vise" for me? :)

[Don Johnson]

luckybalbowa,
Buy the NV with the fine point setup. There are tricks I use to make the in-line jaws work better for small hooks but if the vast majority of your tying is minutia, then it's probably better to start out with the Nor-Vise jawset that has been designed for that type of tying.

With that said, in my experience, tying flies on hooks that small has rarely required in-line rotary functionality. Have you looked at the HMH with the micro jaws? It's a rotary vise, not in-line but does rotate 360 degrees, and those jaws are very fine...probably the most slender on the market and really allow a lot of access around the bend of the hook.

PM me if you have questions.

Regards,
Don

[Steve Rohrbach]

Lucky, great question. Norm sells an attachment called the Fine Point Jaw. It sells for $65 and attaches by loosening a hex nut. Takes 15 seconds. I use the Fine Point fairly often and find that it enhances the ability to on smaller flies. Check out the website. It works well.

[Shane Atwood]

Don,
Thanks for the offer of help with questions I have using the Nor Vise.

Dubbing
1) when I am doing some dubbing I put the thread over the bobbin holder as Norm shows in his video. I start to spin the vise and the dubbing grabs. My problem is that I either make dubbing like a rope or it is so loose that it wont stay on the hook. Any suggestions to help get my dubbing looking more natural? it seems there is no inbetween.

2) When you want to dub to you wrap the thread to the eye of the hook or do you just do a half hitch at the back and start dubbing there? My thread always seems to end up 3/4 wrapped back to the eye if I start near the bend. If I start on the front I have to wrap the thread over the dubbing to finish the fly. Any Suggestions?

Sorry if these questions are incomplete or dumb, I am real new to this and don't really know the questions to ask.

Thanks
Shane

[Don Johnson]

Hi Shane,
1) The problem you are having here will easily be fixed over time with lots and lots of practice with different dubbing materials. As you know, dubbing materials are available in different fiber-lengths, textures (straight or crinkly) and stiffnesses. All of these factors play a role in how quickly the material apllies itself to the thread when trying to spin the material onto the thread. My suggestion is to get some materials to experiment with then try varying the rate of spin of the vise head and then the speed at which you move the clump of dubbing across the thread once the material has grabbed and is starting to work onto the thread. These will both affect the thickness or sparsity of the dubbing on the thread. Another trick I often do is to loosen the clump of dubbing in my fingers before starting the dubbing process. Using your fingers, pull the material apart from itself a few times in different directions to loosen up the fibers. This will usually prevent a big clump from being pulled onto the thread.

2) As there is usually a bit of undubbed thread to turn on prior to the dubbing the hook, I usually start very close to where I want the dubbing to start on the hook, wrap the undubbed thread to exactly where I want the dubbing to start then work my way up the hook shank. If I run out of dubbed thread I simply apply more dubbing and carry on until it's how I want it. The only time I find I need to apply a half hitch is when I'm using up-eye hooks. Conversely, if you are having to wrap over a dubbed body on your way back to the front of the fly, just add a little more dubbing to the thread before wrapping the rest of the body.

Hope this helps and that others chie in to assist in answering if I overlooked anything or if they have any advice. There's no such thing as a dumb question so fire away. That's part of what the Forum is for.

Until later...
Don

[Shane Atwood]

Thanks Don! That makes a lot of sense. Does the size of the thread or kind of thread make any difference? I am currently using Uni-Thread 8/0.

One thing that I have mastered is the weighting of flies with lead wire. I followed Norms video and WOW! easy and almost no waste!!!

Now I am off to practice!!!

[Randy Diefert]

Shane if you want your dubbing material to be tighter on your thread try the folowing...
wind your thread to where you want your dubbing to start.
Put the bobbin in the rest as you do now and apply your dubbing to the thread as you do now.
Only make your dubbed thread about 2-3" long. as you return your bobbin towards the hook, stop at the point where the dubbed portion of your thread ends.
Pinch the thread there and spin the vise several more turns in the same direction. This will tighten the material on the thread.
Did that make sense?
If you need more dubbed material repeat. remember that you'll only need 1/2 of what you think you'll need and it's easy to add to what you already have.
Good luck.
Randy

[Don Johnson]

[QUOTE=thewood87]Thanks Don! That makes a lot of sense. Does the size of the thread or kind of thread make any difference? I am currently using Uni-Thread 8/0.

For what you are trying to accomplish here I don't think the type of thread (flat vs. simple, rope twist) makes a noticeable difference. I prefer flat waxed (Gudebrod) but that's just me; try many and cull the types you dislike.