Dog Fish on the Fly?? Can it be done??

[agent montana]

Out this weekend with Jim and Donte'...Jim just finished his thesis and 3 year study of Dogfish population genetics at Da' Dub! when the conversation about Dogfish being caught on the fly came up...After a little strategizing..and 300 grain line...2 dogfish where bought to the boat on flies...Donte' nailed the first but broke him off next to the boat...Jim then stuck & landed this nice one later...:beer2:
Dogfish..the untapped fishery..Who say's there only good for fish and chips?

[Big K1]

Nice!!!

[PT]

I've caught a few of them in the south sound in less than 5 feet of water. Basically sight fighing them off a certain point on a real low tide. I was out on a jet ski one morning cruising around the point when I noticed dogfish scrambling out of the eel grass in a couple feet of water.

They weren't as easy to catch as I thought they'd be though. Really spooky fish. It took a perfect retrieve or they'd just turn off.

[South Sound]

Nick hooked into an huge one on a fly rod while fishing for searuns. He thought it was a huge salmon. It even fought like a salmon. When the devil eyes came to the boat, he could have died. Unfortunately one day they will become the only sport catch.

[MauiJim]

Thanks for posting that up Mike! I'm happy to have finished my degree, if you guys have any questions about dogfish I'd be happy to talk about it (though I know most of you probably have more experience catching them than I do). I was surprised to learn over the course of the study that dogfish are Washington's largest seafood export product, and a good deal of our dogfish make it over to the UK where they are used in fish 'n chips. Mmm... dogfish....

Here are a few more pics we took of her- she was a nice healthy female, from her size probably around 50 years old (!)

nice ampullae
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/MauiJim/DSC02414.jpg

shark tail
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/MauiJim/DSC02418.jpg

Donte with the release
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/MauiJim/DSC02423.jpg

[Tony]

I caught one last year on a clouser and it really surprised me, I too thought I had a salmon at first it even jumped once before it gave up the battle(very short) I'm really shocked at the age wow how old would a 5 footer be, that makes me glad I rescued the one I saw a bait guy catch a couple of weeks ago he drug it up the beach and just left it there I forgot all about it until I saw it flopping around so I walked over and put it back in the water swished it around until it revived ( it must have sat on the beach for about a half hour) and was able to go on with being a shark.
tony

[MauiJim]

Good save on that doggy Tony-- it's tough, there's such a stigma surrounding them cause they can be such a pain to gear fishers. A 5-footer would be at the upper range of their size distribution, I think we sampled only a few that size-- a big one like that would be over 100 years old! Dogfish are unique among sharks in that we can use their spine to determine their age; annuli are laid down on the spine (like tree rings), and we can count the annuli to figure out how old the dogs are. Other sharks don't have any structures like that where we can figure out their age.

I'd be interested to hear from others about the biggest dogfish they've seen-- I've heard anecdotal evidence about fishermen catching 8 footers here in Puget Sound, but none that large have been scientifically recorded.

[Dylan D]

Very interesting, particularly the age. I had no idea. The biggest I ever caught was about 4 feet, but none on a fly. I better add this to the list.

[hikepat]

I can tell you there at least used to be 8ft Dogfish. I caught one back in the 70's that was longer then the 8ft Livingston I was in at the time. We were very young and we cut off the head and tail to be able to fit it into another 8 foot boat because even minus the head and tail it would not fit into the Livingston to show mom and dad. The other boat was a 8 foot flat bottom boat and had just under 8 feet of floor to lay it out where the Livingston had much less. I found out many years later it would have been a state record but now days I just feel bad for killing for no reason a shark and now even more sad to realize just how old it would have been.
On a better note Amie caught two Dog fish jigging on a hand line a Slump Buster fly fishing off the dock next to some children catching and releasing some dog fish on Herring just last summer so I know the can be taken on a fly.

[MauiJim]

Cool hikepat, thanks for that information... that's what I've been hearing, that there may have been either a 'race' of very large dogfish that lived exclusively within Puget Sound, or that these large sharks could have been from offshore waters, coming into the sound to have their pups. Maybe I can find big ones in historic photos...

[Dizane]

The biggest I've caught was about 4 1/2 ft. I've caught a few on artificials but not many, and never one on the fly. As to the reported 8 footers, is it possible that anglers may be mistaking soupfin sharks or some other species of shark for dogfish?

As to the untapped fishery...I think there's a reason for that...;)

[salt dog]

Congrats on the diploma Jim!! Way to go. Hope you can pony that education into a soft life on a tropical island somewhere so we can visit you.
Thanks for the fun report Mike, and the follow up photos Jim.

[MauiJim]

Thanks Jim! Hope to see you out on the water soon :thumb:

[Jay Allyn]

Those big 8 footers could be six gilled sharks....they get that big regularly, live in the PUget Sound, and look some what like dog fish......it's a possability

[Steve Rohrbach]

hikepat, not to hijack the thread but you have hooked my curiousity with the "Slump Buster" Fly. I am not familiar with the pattern but think that based upon the name alone it belongs in my fly box. Will you please share your secret?
Best regards, Steve:thumb:

[hikepat]

Take a look at Mike's fly in the 2005 streamer swap in the gallery. In fact it was his fly from that swap that Amie used to catch those dog fish. Many of the swap flies I have received over the years have ended up in her fly box.

[Smalma]

I have to second funkyfishing's comment that those large "dogfish" could be six gills. Caught what I thought was a record "dogfish" in the 1960s - towed me from across Mutiny bay (from the "wind mill hole to Double Bluff) before landing it. Later learned it had to be a six gill - Have noticed that the six gills have a much greater girth than one typcially sees with Dogfish.

Jim -
Interesting stuff on the their ages - always knew that they were slow growing but 50 or more years old - WOW! I wonder how they have escapement population crashes (or at least how do they recovery so quickly) typcially of most of our other slow growing species that are/have been heavily fished (sturgeon, most rockfish, etc). Are we seeing recruitment to Puget Sound from outside areas? I'm going to have to do some research one of these next rainy days.

Tight lines
Curt

[sturgeon crazy]

do dogs have teeth? seems like it would be tough to keep one on with out a heavy shock tippet or wire if they do.
SC

[MauiJim]

Sturgeon crazy- they sure do have teeth, as my buddy Donte found out when he got his fly-less leader back to the boat! It took a minute or two, but it clipped right through his 20lb tippet. I hooked mine just outside the mouth and was able to land her :thumb:

Curt-- our research was really interesting, and took a two-pronged approach: we sought to identify discrete populations of dogfish in the northeast Pacific (Oregon to Alaska), and looked at both demographic differentiation (changes in life history characters) and genetic differentiaton to try and distinguish distinct populations.

A recent tagging study indicated that dogfish move around a lot, but that there may be evidence for separate populations in inshore areas (e.g., Puget Sound and Strait of Georgia). The commercial fishery for dogfish in Puget Sound and just offshore could mean just what you described, that we may be depleting a population that doesn't get much immigration from other areas.

We didn't find any genetic differentiation in the NE Pacific-- so therefore no evidence for a "Puget Sound only" dogfish population. However, it would take only a few dogfish to migrate between populations to cause the result that we saw, and we know that dogfish do move around a lot. So there may be a 'resident' population of dogfish in Puget Sound, which may get some immigration from offshore/Strait of Georgia populations... but the tagging study showed that only a few dogfish from the Strait of Georgia moved into Puget Sound, and little from offshore.

What may be protecting them from population crashes could be built into their life history-- juveniles (born as live, baby sharks) appear to be more pelagic and live up in the water column, separate from the adults; when they near sexual maturity, they move down to the benthos. I think that even if large portion of the adult population were to suffer significant mortality, the dozens of age classes of juvenile dogfish inhabiting essentially a different niche would 'fill in' once they were old enough. Considering that dogfish don't reach maturity until age 20-30 years, there could be lots of juveniles around!

The demographic data showed that there may be separate offshore populations, indicated by 'southern' dogfish (California, Oregon) being smaller at age and reaching an overall smaller size than 'northern' dogfish (WA coast, Puget Sound). There may be some sampling bias, but it appears that there isn't just one big population of dogfish comprising the entire NE Pacific.

Another cool thing they found in the tagging study was that dogfish cross the Pacific with some degree of regularity-- so far, 33 dogfish initially tagged off the coast of BC, Canada have been recaptured in Japan! Others have been recaptured in Alaska, California, and Mexico... these guys really get around. I think the oldest dogfish that was aged was around 120, and they've been estimated at 130+ years old over in the northwest Pacific.

I'm working on getting my genetics paper submitted, and would be happy to send you a copy of my thesis if you'd like (once I make all the corrections suggested by my committee!)... sorry for the long-winded response, but it's been a really cool system to study :beer2:

PS- the tagging study I was referring to was published by McFarlane and King in 2003 in Fish. Bull.-- here's a link to a .pdf:
www.fishbull.noaa.gov/1012/13mcfarl.pdf

[troutskiII]

Had to laugh at the remark about only being good for Fish & Chips. I do know of a once popular eatery on Alki Beach ( No, not Spuds Fish & Chips) that was caught substituting Dogfish in their offerings. When a friend of yours works on a boat / processor that was doing the angling, it's hard to keep that kind of info "secret". Wasn't sure about an 8 footer either. I grew up fishing puget sound regularly & have hooked hundreds of those rascals but the biggest I saw was a tad under 5' Sorta related, Anyone hit a Blue Shark on a fly? Off Westport they're pretty common and have had some decent fights put up by them. Last year our skipper ran the boat after a good sized one that took 200+ yards of line out. That reel screamed for close to 5 minutes.:cool:

[agent montana]

Maui Jim droppin the science like no other...I am glad to see the dog getting his day!!!

[South Sound]

I feel like we will be looking for the uncommon game fish more and more due to the problems facing our traditional game fish. There is a book on fly fishing for sharks. I would imagine if you want to know more about fly fishing for dogfish, that would be a great resource. As for me. I am still not sure how you guys grabed it without being "spiked".
I try to keep them out of the boat if possible.

[Smalma]

Jim -
I would be interested in seeing your work when you are done - my fishing interest are pretty eclectic.

Thanks much for the education
Curt

[Josh Benjamin]

do dogs have teeth? seems like it would be tough to keep one on with out a heavy shock tippet or wire if they do.
SC

We had one go through 30lb leader at the boat on friday
yup, they have teeth
got one friday close to 4'
much bigger than the other 3 we caught, about 2 1/2'

not on flies.