Input

[fishmagnet]

Fairly new to the spey fun. Would like to purchase a spey rod and I am looking for advice. I will be using it mostly on the SKy, both winter and summer, so sink tips will be used along with a floater. Right now I have been looking at the CND Specialist, Sage Z axis, and the Scott ARC. ANy input or other rod selection ideas would be appreciated. I would rather put money into the rod so I don't have to upgrade as I progress ( hopefully!) with my casting abilities. Thanks !!

[Salmo_g]

I've only cast the CND, but I think they're all good rods. Go see Ron and the troops at the fly shop just down the street from you. I think you'll get a lot of good information there.

[bigtj]

I would buy something used on a good deal. Probably a 14' 7 or 8-wt. Trust me you will end up changing your mind/upgrading! So start simple and go from there. If you absolutely are set on buying something new that's cool too though nothing wrong with having the "best".

The best advice I can give you though is stay away from the really heavy outfits, 9 wt and heavier or 15' and longer. Get something lighter and shorter in the 13-14' range 7 or 8 wt. Plenty of rod to handle any steelhead to 20 pounds and a lot less effort to cast. There are some guys that fish over on the Clearwater and up on the Skagit that are really enamored with the big sticks for chucking big bugs a long ways but you really don't need that kind of gun. The rods I fish with 90% of the time are a 7141-4, which is an XP more or less, and really an 8-wt, this is the rod I use for winter fish. I have a 7136-4 which is a noodle and probably more like a 6 1/2, that's what I use in the summer or on smaller rivers in the winter. I use an interchangable tip windcutter with the 7141 and a floater with the 7136. I could easily use the 7141-4 for summer runs I just like the lighter rod for smaller fish. I've had guys tell me I'm nuts using these rods on winter fish they're too light blah blah blah look at these sticks they make a 12-wt look like a toothpick they're plenty of gun believe me.

For reels you don't really even need a drag I ditched almost all my heavy abels and pates and now I'm using old hardys and sages. However there are some really good inexpensive reels out there like Pfluger trions etc. you can pick up for $100-$200 and they work great. When I do use a disk drag I back it off so the line won't over-run and just palm the rim. It works fine.

For a line a Skagit or Windcutter is the way to go. Probably a windcutter if I could have only one. Line selection is tricky get the best advice you can and go from there. You won't really know what you like for something like a year or two until you really get the casting down. Seriously it's just like skiing everything else your tastes will change over time.

Other good advice is to get yourself to a casting clinic speyclave or somebody that will take you under their wing. I've met a zillion guys that have been casting 2-handers for a long time self-taught that have a lot of bad habits and/or still can't cast. This is one hobby/sport that really takes some help to understand.

Good luck with it I think you'll have a blast.

[Steve Buckner]

Aaron Reimer in Carnation is another option for you. He offers many lines/rod combinations so that you can start to make an informed decision about what rod weight/length will best suit you.

At first, you may not even know what questions to ask but over time, you should try casting slower more traditional rods and then comparing them by casting faster action rods so that you can get a feel for what seems to work best for you.

Additionally, we're not too far away from the various Spey Claves that will be happening later this winter/spring. If you're not in a hurry to decide which rod to buy, and I would suggest not being in a hurry, you'll be able to cast a number of rod/line combos over the next few months.

[FT]

Steve's advice is right on! The best thing you can do for yourself is find out what type of rod action you like: i.e. slow and soft (means it bends to the cork most of the time when casting); moderate and moderate stiffness (it bends to the middle most of the time when casting, whether long or short); or fast and stiff (means it only bends past the top when really pushed). The only way to do this is to cast rods of all action types. And as Steve said, "Don't be in a hurry".

As for lines, avoid the long-belly lines and the really short lines like the Skagit and Scandanavian spey lines. This is simply because both the short lines are specialty lines and the long-belly lines take a lot of skill and very good technique to cast well. Any of the short-belly lines (RIO Windcutter, SA Short Spey, Delta Spey) or the mid-belly lines (RIO MidSpey, SA Mastery Spey, Delta Long Spey) are the best choice for a beginning spey caster.

This is really no different than helping someone choose a single-hand rod. Not everyone likes fast recovering, stiff rods like I do, nor would you tell a beginning single-hand caster to go out and buy a shooting head with mono running line or a salmon/steelhead taper to learn how to cast. Like I said, avoiding the very short spey lines (Skagit and Scandanavian) is not different than avoiding a shooting head with a newbie to learn single-hand casting. Likewise, avoiding the long-belly spey lines is no different than avoiding a salmon/steelhead or SA XXD to have a newbie learn single-hand casting.

The best thing you (or anyone else thinking of getting into 2-hand rods and spey casting for that matter) can do for yourself is cast as many different 2-handers of different actions as you can.

One other thing, for an all-purpose, year round use for summer runs and winter runs rod an 8 or 9 wt of 13'6" or 14' is the way to go. The 8 wt will be just a tad light for some winter fishing on the Sky and the 9 will be a tad heavy for summer fishing; but either will work. Again, this is no different than recommending an 8"6" or 9' 5 or 6 wt single-hand rod as an all purpose, all-around rod.

[fishmagnet]

This is great advice. Thanks for all the detailed input and the time spent. Much appreciated and any further advice is greatly welcome. I plan to eventually get a rod for the winter runs and 1 for the summer and G Ronde fish.:)

[bigtj]

With your plan get a ~14' 8-wt to start then eventually pick up a 6. The 8 wt will be fine for summer runs for now and absolutely the perfect stick in the winter. I still think a 9-wt is too heavy for the type of fishing you'll do, unless it's a noodley rod like the old Sage 9140-4 which is really an 8-wt. Other people think differently but I believe 9 and 10 wts. only become necessary for throwing heavy lines and really big bugs and I think it's a lot more enjoyable to fish lighter lines; fish that are "players" will move for a fly you don't need to dredge the bottom with a 10" long fly to catch steelhead. An 8-wt will toss a type 4 head all day long without wearing you out. But that is just my biased opinion, you may decide a 9-wt for you and if that's what works for you then more power to you.

Rhonde-type fish are pretty small so a 6 is perfect for them. And I wouldn't hesitate to use a lot of 6's like the Sage 6126 on steelhead to 12 lbs. Again hold up a 6-wt double hander to a 10 or 12-wt single hander and you'll see, the double hander is a huge stick and can handle bigger fish than most people give them credit for. If you end up with a 9-wt though for your winter rod you might consider a 7 for your lighter rod instead so you don't have a big gap in your rods.

Also keep an open mind on the Skagits. They can be really, really easty to learn on. The best advice is to try for yourself, test cast a few lines and rods, the advice I gave above is just a guideline. Mid-length belly lines take a while to figure out, the shorter Skagits and Windcutters are perfect to learn on.

Good luck and enjoy.

[FT]

Since you have already decided you are going to get both a lighter rod for summer and a heavier rod for winter, and since you are going to be primairy fishing the Sky according to your posts, with a trip or so per year to the Ronde, I'd recommend a 7 or 8 wt of 13'-14' for the summer rod and a 10 or 11 wt for the winter rod.

The Sky can be very easily fished with a 7 wt 2-hander in summer/fall (as can the other S rivers with summer fish) and there are a plethora of nice 7 wt 2-handers currently on the market. It would be my first choice in a 13' length. Granted a 7 wt is a tad too much for the Ronde; but not by very much. Also, every type of line is available in 7 wt (or 6/7 or 6/7/8, which all fit a 7 wt 2-hander) as is every sink rate sink tip from intermediate to type 8.

For a winter rod, I personally think a 10 wt of 15' in length would be best because you are going to be tossing big flies ranging from #1's to #3/0's (or even bigger) or large tube flies (some that may be tied on metal tubes) and such large flies are best cast with heavy lines. Also, the extra length of the 15' rod will let you more easily fish some of the runs on the Sky. Again, all line types are readily available in 10 wt spey lines and there is likewise a plethora of 10 wt rods on the market. However, if you want to use a 9wt, it will work, it just isn't as capable of tossing big flies as a 10 wt.

Keep in mind that the sink rate of a sink tip has nothing to due with how much it weighs (or its line size designation if this makes it more understandable). The sink rate of a sink tip has to do with its density: higher density = faster sinking; lower density = slower sinking. Thus, a type 6 sink tip in #6 sinks at the same rate as a type 6 in #10 (OK I will grant that there is a slight, a very slight difference: the #10 one will sink about 1/4" on average faster than the #6 one; but that really is neglible in practical onstream use).

What do I use you might wonder. I use from 7 wts to 11 wts from 13' to 18' long; but I started with a 14' 9 wt back in 1992.

[bigtj]

I respectfully totally disagree with FT's advice on a 15' 10-wt. A 15' 10-wt is the ideal stick for 40-lb kings, not winter run steelhead averaging 8-12 lbs. If you like fishing for 14" trout with an 8-wt rod then you'll love a 15' 10-wt for steelhead. If, like most folks, you like trout fishing with a 5-wt, then stick with a 7-8 wt for steelhead. Anything bigger than that is like hunting quail with a 10 gauge. I know that I felt pretty darn ridiculous landing average size winters on my 10-wt, that rod is long gone. It's a personal preference, of course, but I'd rather use slightly smaller flies and lighter lines and actually feel the fish when I'm fighting them. My 10-wt used to feel like landing fish with a telephone pole which may be cool for some folks but to me is not where it's at.

[Salmo_g]

To each his own, but gotta' agree with Bigtj. Using the ubiquitous Sage 9140 as a benchmark, it feels like overkill on any steelhead less than 15 pounds. Unfortunately the vast majority of steelhead are less than 15 pounds. The first steelhead I caught with my first Spey rod - a 16' 10 wt - was a 6 pound hatchery fish. There was no place to beach it, so I derricked it in and hoisted it up in the air and craned it back over the stream bank brush and set it down. Not even close to being a comfortable fishing tool.

[Rich McCauley]

Well, as you can see, there are a multitude of opinions, all of which have validity. A 15' 10wt or better will be necessary IF you intend to throw BIG flys with mid belly lines. You will be able to toss even bigger flys on a shorter, lighter rod with a Skagit line.
Of course you could always opt for the new Sage Z-Axis 16' 10wt and a Rio Skagit. You can forget about feathers and just pitch the whole bird across the river.

You have already gotten the best advice, go try stuff, learn to cast etc.
There is an incredible resource in your backyard. Mike Kinney, in conjuction with All About The Fly (site sponsor) does a FREE clinic at Ben Howard every Sunday. Having fished and guided the S rivers with a Spey rod for over 20 years he just might have some valuable insight as to methods and equipment.

Good luck, and welcome to the sickness.

[fredaevans]

My vote (and don't ask how many spey rods I have ... I've lost count), but the 7wt for summer use (13-14 foot) is more than adequate for all but the largest of fish (think King Salmon). As for a winter rod, must folks find a 10wt to be over kill, in particular at the 15' and up in length.

Only time I use my 15 footers (10 wts) is with full sinking lines (Ian Gordon intermed and fast sinks); there you DO need the length/power of these types of rods if you're casting weighted flies the size of a dead bird. For any other type of 'work' a 14 is plenty. One exception to this (to compare the 14 and 15 foot 9wt 'green Sages') is a bit of added distance ... at the expense of fatigue over the course of casting during the day. The shorter one is a 'all day' rod, the longer rod will exhaust you out fairly quickly...but you will cast farther with a 'given line.'

Fred


Edit: Read right past Rich's comment about the free classes with Mike. He IS a wiz at what he does; and better yet he IS a great instructor ... read that he knows how to 'convey' the info in a usable format, not just 'talk to talk.'

[bigtj]

Of course you could always opt for the new Sage Z-Axis 16' 10wt and a Rio Skagit. You can forget about feathers and just pitch the whole bird across the river.

iagree

Rich made a good point....the line has as much to do with the flies you can toss as the rod. Take, for example, the sage 7141-4, which is the rod I use for winter steelheading 95% of the time. It's a fast-actioned 8-wt in reality, and I use it with an 8/9/10 windcutter and a type 4 tip or a ~600 grain skagit (total with cheater) and a type 4 tip. What dictates the size of fly I can deliver? The rod? No, it's the force generated by the fly line, which is a function of a) it's mass and b) it's acceleration (Issac's second law F=ma). A shorter line like a skagit can generate higher line speed with a relatively large mass per unit length, which results in more line speed. So, ultimately part of the equation left out of the discussion here is that your choice of fly line is pretty important, too.

fishmangnet I know this is a lot to chew on...heck sometimes the whole 2-hander world seems so confusing that it's not worth it...but it's not as bad as it seems. Pick up a good balanced outfit and get out there and just do it. After you get some expereince under your belt you'll know what to do for your taste and all our advice will be moot, anyway. Good luck.

[fishmagnet]

Thanks to all for their input. I plan on taking my time and getting the correct setup for my casting and fishing style. There is always something to learn. Matching the rod, reel, and line will be the fun part with me asking alot of questions. Happy "Holli Daze"

[Davy]

The word "free" when used in conjuntion with Aarons and Rons spey clinics is a a bit of a misnomer I would think.

Kinda like your first "fix" from the guy in the dark alley.

Within months you will own 5 really long rods, 7 really really big reels, several fly lines, some of which will look thick enough to moor the Titanic, have made countless new friends, and have several fly boxes larger than grandpas Cadillac trunk with flys larger than the bumper-- BUT-- you will be in steelhead and spey casting bliss!!!

Yup, they do a really neat thing those guys. Just go!

[Hal Eckert]

The word "free" when used in conjuntion with Aarons and Rons spey clinics is a a bit of a misnomer I would think.

Kinda like your first "fix" from the guy in the dark alley.

Within months you will own 5 really long rods, 7 really really big reels, several fly lines, some of which will look thick enough to moor the Titanic, have made countless new friends, and have several fly boxes larger than grandpas Cadillac trunk with flys larger than the bumper-- BUT-- you will be in steelhead and spey casting bliss!!!

Yup, they do a really neat thing those guys. Just go!

Exactly why I have avoided the spey claves the last four years it just creates more "wants" when my "needs" are already well satiated.

But good for a beginner to touch and feel the various setups.

:beer2: :beer1:

BG