mike kinney and bob meiser join tfo

[shawn k]

saw this on dan blantons bulletin board.


http://www.danblanton.com/viewmessage.php?id=79156


maybe they will have better cork on the new rods.

[Sloan Craven]

I just think it will be impressive to have two of the best rod designers working on more affordable spey rods.

[Eric Tarcha]

that is fantastic....!

[greyghost]

Wow! I can't wait, congrats TFO!

Pete

[Bert Kinghorn]

TFO pulled off a major coup getting these two to join them, especially given the growing reputation for Meiser rods and the MKS series in particular. We will all benefit from the new association. The bar just got raised again for two-handed rod performance. Hats off to TFO for a very smart business decision.

[Salmon Chaser]

Will a price hike be in the near future? bawling:
Salmon Chaser

[Philster]

Will a price hike be in the near future? bawling:
Salmon Chaser

When Lefty joined the only price hike came with a higher end rod. A level of quality, design, and materials they hadn't offered before. And it wasn't a big step up to the top of the line. So, if there is a price hike this time, hopefully it'll be the same story. An improvement in their entire line of spey rods, and the addition of a "high end" line, which is only a little more than the current models. Let's hope anyway.

[Hal Eckert]

Great news can't wait to see that light weight trout spey rod.

:beer2: :)

BG

[Salmon Chaser]

Thanks Philster,,, lets hope it doesnt happen. BG you beat me to it as i am in line for one of the light trout speys myself.
SC

[Red Shed]

The TFO rods that have Mike's and Bob's fingerprints on them have their own price points as outlined in the press release. As far as I know the current production TFO two handers are not increasing in price beyond the $25.00 increase we had last Fall.

[Ringlee]

Might have to pick up the 4/5 weight. Sounds very interesting.

[Sloan Craven]

I think Philster is right. They might come out with a higher end, but I don't think there will be an overall price hike. TFO's success (I beleive ) is in their reputation of a good product and a more than reasonable price. I big price hike would do some damage to their reputation.

[bigtj]

Hot damn! These rods are going to rock. I've always been a "sage" guy but the prices have always been ridiculous. Maybe this will be a message to other rod companies that consumers want high-end performance for a more pedestrian price. Can't wait to see them.

[luckybalbowa]

Hot damn! These rods are going to rock. I've always been a "sage" guy but the prices have always been ridiculous. Maybe this will be a message to other rod companies that consumers want high-end performance for a more pedestrian price. Can't wait to see them.

well, you would hope it might drive down the prices a little, but it would be a bad thing to hear of those guys in bainbridge and woodland losing their jobs because of the cheap labor found overseas that tfo uses.

[Sloan Craven]

well, you would hope it might drive down the prices a little, but it would be a bad thing to hear of those guys in bainbridge and woodland losing their jobs because of the cheap labor found overseas that tfo uses.
That's a good sentiment, but I don't think it would come to that. I do think Sage will follow suit like they did with the Launch series for single handers and make a spey rod that is a little more affordable for the rest of us if they want a piece of that market. This new series of TFO two handed rods is going to have the same impact on the market that Lefty Kreh's single handed rods had/There are always gonna be guys in the sport to whom money is no object, but others will need something a little cheaper if they want to also be able to afford a line and reel to go with the rod.
Of course these rods won't be a substitute for the Mike Kinney Series or the Highlander's that Meiser makes. But they will be great for people just getting into spey casting or people who want a back up to fill out their selection.
I'm already thinking about getting the two-handed trout rod.

[Porter]

Flyshopkristan posted this yesterday :confused: it's old news :beer1: look below:D

never mind...me bad :beathead: :beathead:

[FlyShopKristin]

Flyshopkristan posted this yesterday :confused: it's old news :beer1: look below:D

never mind...me bad :beathead: :beathead:

Nah - that was my dumb-ass move. I posted without looking to see this string had already started.

Congrats to Mike, Bob and TFO - this is great! Bert said is best - "we will all benefit from the new association". These are great rods, and I am so glad to see the incredible talents of Bob and Mike in a new line of rods.

[FT]

Keep in mind that these new rods are going to be built out of IM6 graphite and will not be made out of the higher modulus graphites Meiser uses in his rods. Also, they will not utilize different type of graphite for different rod sections, as Meiser uses. The tapers will be Meiser's and they will perform well; but they will not be of the same performance level of Meiser's multi-modulus rods. Nor will they have the same high standards of cosmetics of Meiser's rods.

Also, keep in mind that Mike is not a rod designer, he told Meiser what he wanted in a rod, Meiser built blanks, Mike tested the resulting rods, Meiser refined them based on Mike's input, Mike tested them again, etc. until Mike was happy with the result. Thus, the MKS series rods came into being.

Yes, TFO's Meiser style rods (including the MKS type ones) will cast well enough. And they will be a good choice for those looking to or needing to spend less. However, please let's not delude ourselves into thinking they will be the equal of high end rods, including the Meiser's they are being based upon. IM6 is a good rod material; however, it doesn't have the performance of newer, higher modulus graphites, especially when you use different graphites in different sections of the rod optimized for their performance at that point in the rod's deflection curve.

It is also nice that their are good 2-hand rods on the market now in the $250-$350 price range. However, this will not remove the market for high performance, high-end rods from companies like Sage, Loomis, Meiser, Burkheimer, T&T, CND, etc. Their will always be folks who will look for the highest perfomance 2-hander that suits their casting style and preferences, even among those who don't have the cash to spend on an $800.00 rod. Many of these folks will save for a few years and then buy the high end rod for the performance. They will then use that rod until it wears out, breaks, or they die. So please, let's not jump on the bandwagon that not everyone can afford a high end rods. The truth is we all can if we are willing to save for it and wait a few years until we have enough stashed away to get it.

Also, keep in mind that companies like TFO are not innovating. They are simply using tapers and designs that the high end rod companies and builders have developed and thoroughly tested, they are not creating their own unique tapers. The Sages, Meiser's etc. of the world are the ones doing the actual development and refinement work. Then the TFO's come along, take the design, pay the developer a fee for using his work, and have them built offshore using cheap, sweatshop labor.

I find it interesting that St. Croix can develop their own tapers and designs, use local labor in the Wisconsin town they are located in, and still have a 2-hander built for the same $350.00 retail price without using sweat shop labor in a foreign country. I guess St. Croix is able to get along with less profit per rod. I wonder why TFO can't do this.

[James Mello]

Keep in mind that these new rods are going to be built out of IM6 graphite and will not be made out of the higher modulus graphites Meiser uses in his rods. Also, they will not utilize different type of graphite for different rod sections, as Meiser uses. The tapers will be Meiser's and they will perform well; but they will not be of the same performance level of Meiser's multi-modulus rods. Nor will they have the same high standards of cosmetics of Meiser's rods.

Also, keep in mind that Mike is not a rod designer, he told Meiser what he wanted in a rod, Meiser built blanks, Mike tested the resulting rods, Meiser refined them based on Mike's input, Mike tested them again, etc. until Mike was happy with the result. Thus, the MKS series rods came into being.

Yes, TFO's Meiser style rods (including the MKS type ones) will cast well enough. And they will be a good choice for those looking to or needing to spend less. However, please let's not delude ourselves into thinking they will be the equal of high end rods, including the Meiser's they are being based upon. IM6 is a good rod material; however, it doesn't have the performance of newer, higher modulus graphites, especially when you use different graphites in different sections of the rod optimized for their performance at that point in the rod's deflection curve.

It is also nice that their are good 2-hand rods on the market now in the $250-$350 price range. However, this will not remove the market for high performance, high-end rods from companies like Sage, Loomis, Meiser, Burkheimer, T&T, CND, etc. Their will always be folks who will look for the highest perfomance 2-hander that suits their casting style and preferences, even among those who don't have the cash to spend on an $800.00 rod. Many of these folks will save for a few years and then buy the high end rod for the performance. They will then use that rod until it wears out, breaks, or they die. So please, let's not jump on the bandwagon that not everyone can afford a high end rods. The truth is we all can if we are willing to save for it and wait a few years until we have enough stashed away to get it.

Also, keep in mind that companies like TFO are not innovating. They are simply using tapers and designs that the high end rod companies and builders have developed and thoroughly tested, they are not creating their own unique tapers. The Sages, Meiser's etc. of the world are the ones doing the actual development and refinement work. Then the TFO's come along, take the design, pay the developer a fee for using his work, and have them built offshore using cheap, sweatshop labor.



I don't think that anyone insinuated that this was going to replace the high end market. But perhaps this can refresh some of the pricing that is going on. Let's be honest, can anyone say that the Loomis Greased Line rods are worth nearly a Grand? The fit and finish stinks, especially compared to the rods put out by Burkie and Meiser.

Also as for TFO not innovating, that's true, but hopefully this change will help drive some of the innovations (however slight) in taper design into the lower end market. In a lot of ways, this lower end market helps define and push the higher end along.


I find it interesting that St. Croix can develop their own tapers and designs, use local labor in the Wisconsin town they are located in, and still have a 2-hander built for the same $350.00 retail price without using sweat shop labor in a foreign country. I guess St. Croix is able to get along with less profit per rod. I wonder why TFO can't do this.

I've often wondered this too. Is it all about profit margin, or are there other economics involved here? For instance, why is it almost as cheap to purchase a fly reel made in Germany (with high labor costs) that is shipped to the US, as it is to purchase a local product (take your pick!). In some cases I agree the comparison isn't fair, but some companies like St Croix seem to put out a very good product, made in the US, all with the same (or slightly higher) price point than other US companies.

[luckybalbowa]

When talking about meiser's rod designs, I heard that he doesnt actually make the rods himself, he specifies/designs a taper and has someone else build it. Could someone please validate/refute this information with authority.

Thanks.

[Big Tuna]

When talking about meiser's rod designs, I heard that he doesnt actually make the rods himself, he specifies/designs a taper and has someone else build it. Could someone please validate/refute this information with authority.

Thanks.

He doesn't roll the blanks. He designs them and has someone else roll them.

[alpinetrout]

When talking about meiser's rod designs, I heard that he doesnt actually make the rods himself, he specifies/designs a taper and has someone else build it. Could someone please validate/refute this information with authority.

Thanks.

That's a fact. The blanks are rolled by CTS in New Zealand.

[herl]

I've often mused about why it is that TFO's business model is so widely accepted by fly fisherman, while when companies like Ross and Winston go overseas they are shuned and dumped on by the FFing community. I have come to the personal conclusion that it is b/c TFO has always been forthcomming and open about their manufacturing practices while others have been less than transparent. Also, I'm sure it helps that the end product is of high quality and the savings are passed on to the consumer.

As a group it seems that FFishers are more socially aware than your average worm drowner. So I think its interesting companies like TFO have been so warmly embraced. I'd love to hear other's thoughts on this. Just cause I'm curious... This probably should have been a new thread.

[Big Tuna]

I've often mused about why it is that TFO's business model is so widely accepted by fly fisherman, while when companies like Ross and Winston go overseas they are shuned and dumped on by the FFing community. I have come to the personal conclusion that it is b/c TFO has always been forthcomming and open about their manufacturing practices while others have been less than transparent. Also, I'm sure it helps that the end product is of high quality and the savings are passed on to the consumer.

As a group it seems that FFishers are more socially aware than your average worm drowner. So I think its interesting companies like TFO have been so warmly embraced. I'd love to hear other's thoughts on this. Just cause I'm curious... This probably should have been a new thread.

It seems as though folks who object to outsourcing either have heartburn over jobs/work going over seas or think the quality suffers. To my knowledge, TFO has had its rods made overseas for as long as it has been in existence, or at least as long as its been fairly big on the national scene. People who buy TFO rods are looking for less expensive alternatives and aren't as concerned about fit and finish. Companies such as Ross and Winston have begun outsourcing more recently and those who object, likely do so on the basis of those jobs going overseas or believe the quality of the product has suffered. Just a thought.

[James Mello]

When talking about meiser's rod designs, I heard that he doesnt actually make the rods himself, he specifies/designs a taper and has someone else build it. Could someone please validate/refute this information with authority.

Thanks.

He has CTS roll them for him. He still has to do the taper design though

[James Mello]

I've often mused about why it is that TFO's business model is so widely accepted by fly fisherman, while when companies like Ross and Winston go overseas they are shuned and dumped on by the FFing community. I have come to the personal conclusion that it is b/c TFO has always been forthcomming and open about their manufacturing practices while others have been less than transparent. Also, I'm sure it helps that the end product is of high quality and the savings are passed on to the consumer.

As a group it seems that FFishers are more socially aware than your average worm drowner. So I think its interesting companies like TFO have been so warmly embraced. I'd love to hear other's thoughts on this. Just cause I'm curious... This probably should have been a new thread.

The mantra of those companies for years was that the rods were made in the USA. For Ross, it appears that they even started a seperate entity "Ross Worldwide" to help protect that image. With Winston is another thing entirely. The were made in the USA, then started making rods overseas very quietly. All the while the quality started to suffer, but the prices remained very high....

[luckybalbowa]

It's pretty interesting to me how people value the rods built with cts blanks so much when compared with perhaps a TFO. Both rods are built overseas, but one is built by new zealanders, while the other comes from Korea. Does New Zealand have a deserved and long lasting reputation for top notch manufacturing of goods that I do not know about? What is the difference between CTS and TFO really? (besides what they say about themselves on their websites.)

Don't get me wrong. I have heard great things about CTS stuff, but I just think its an interesting social construct that has been developed about the quality of manufacturing between different foreign countries.

I think Meiser does some really awesome finish work. But recently I did not buy a Meiser because he used blanks that were built overseas. If not for my own rod building obsession, I would probably buy a Meiser finished rod from a Sage blank as he offers to do. I personally wouldnt buy a tfo either, although either rods might be the right choice for someone else. In fact I try to buy products from my hometown area if they are of comparable value (Vancouver,WA) knowing that these companies help my local community.

I'm not trying to flame up on this post, but I'm wondering if anyone agrees with my method of purchasing. Or if you disagree, how do you purchase your gear? price only? quality only? location? etc. Some of you might notice that the social aspects of fly fishing interest me more than anything else except of course my own enjoyment of the sport.

[Brent Comer]

This sounds like a topic for another thread. :thumb:

I'm not trying to flame up on this post, but I'm wondering if anyone agrees with my method of purchasing. Or if you disagree, how do you purchase your gear? price only? quality only? location? etc. Some of you might notice that the social aspects of fly fishing interest me more than anything else except of course my own enjoyment of the sport.

[Salmo_g]

FT mentioned:

"I find it interesting that St. Croix can develop their own tapers and designs, use local labor in the Wisconsin town they are located in, and still have a 2-hander built for the same $350.00 retail price without using sweat shop labor in a foreign country. I guess St. Croix is able to get along with less profit per rod. I wonder why TFO can't do this."

I've wondered a similar, but different thought. I wonder why Sage and Loomis can't do this.

I don't buy Loomis rods because I don't care for their action, and I don't buy Sage rods (with 2 exceptions) because I consider them over-priced despite their design innovation and hi-tech materials. I do not expect any agreement about the pervasiveness of marketing hype in the fly fishing industry, but my observations persuade me that hype in the main ingredient serving the industry today. Therefore I'm rather pleased with the influx of quality fly rods from offshore sources.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

[James Mello]

It's pretty interesting to me how people value the rods built with cts blanks so much when compared with perhaps a TFO. Both rods are built overseas, but one is built by new zealanders, while the other comes from Korea. Does New Zealand have a deserved and long lasting reputation for top notch manufacturing of goods that I do not know about? What is the difference between CTS and TFO really? (besides what they say about themselves on their websites.)

Don't get me wrong. I have heard great things about CTS stuff, but I just think its an interesting social construct that has been developed about the quality of manufacturing between different foreign countries.

I think Meiser does some really awesome finish work. But recently I did not buy a Meiser because he used blanks that were built overseas. If not for my own rod building obsession, I would probably buy a Meiser finished rod from a Sage blank as he offers to do. I personally wouldnt buy a tfo either, although either rods might be the right choice for someone else. In fact I try to buy products from my hometown area if they are of comparable value (Vancouver,WA) knowing that these companies help my local community.

I'm not trying to flame up on this post, but I'm wondering if anyone agrees with my method of purchasing. Or if you disagree, how do you purchase your gear? price only? quality only? location? etc. Some of you might notice that the social aspects of fly fishing interest me more than anything else except of course my own enjoyment of the sport.

There are huge differences between CTS and the stuff from TFO. Materials, the kind of processes, the choice of tapers, etc. This isn't to say the Korean companys put out crap, but in general CTS is pushing out stuff that only other high end manufactuers can do (graphic scrim, multimodulus within the same section, etc...)...

[James Mello]

I'm not trying to flame up on this post, but I'm wondering if anyone agrees with my method of purchasing. Or if you disagree, how do you purchase your gear? price only? quality only? location? etc. Some of you might notice that the social aspects of fly fishing interest me more than anything else except of course my own enjoyment of the sport.

To each his own, but in rebuttle, I'd say, I won't support local industries if the pricing/quality ratio doesn't justify buying from them. It's kinda like the late 70's early 80's auto industry. They were more expensive, lower quality, but damn, if you didn't buy American, you were unpatriotic. To whit, I'm not a huge fan of the pricing of Loomis 2 handers. With all of that said, if the price difference is a few bucks I won't sweat it. But if the price difference is larger, I say let the American spirit of innovation take place, and either push the cutting edge (Sage), or figure out how to do it cheaper....

Also, as a side note, Shimano owns Loomis, so if you are truly interested in American industries, you're pretty much left with Sage and St Croix.

-- Cheers
-- James

[alpinetrout]

I'm a big fan of supporting the quality local brands, but refusing to buy any imported fishing equipment simply to "keep American jobs" is the most minimal, insignificant contribution to the American economy you can possibly make. Look at the "Made in..." tags on your clothing, shoes, cars, electronics, dishes, furniture, etc. How much did you spend on those items versus a couple hundred bucks for a fly rod and how many of them have equivalent products that are made in the USA?

[Big K1]

Also, as a side note, Shimano owns Loomis, so if you are truly interested in American industries, you're pretty much left with Sage and St Croix.

-- Cheers
-- James

Burkheimer.

[alpinetrout]

Burkheimer.

You know, I tried to get Burkheimer to build a couple of blanks for me a few years ago, but after being told they were a few days away from being finished for several months straight, I finally gave up and had CTS build them instead. I never did hear if he finished them or not, but my guess is he never even started.

[James Mello]

Burkheimer.

Burkie == slow... He tries to keep production to around 500 a year. If you're not on the list, then the velvet ropes will keep you out. It's not to say he's a bad guy, to the contrary he's done a lot for the 2 handed guys out there. But in general his production can be considered Boutique rather than consumer, which is probably how he and his customers prefer it.

-- Cheers
-- James

[luckybalbowa]

Burkheimer.

Exactly who I bought from last. :) Quality in a local business. Price was up there for the blank, but not too much more than any other of similar quality.

For me in the last couple of years I have visited gloomis' and burkheimer's manufacturing shops and have met the people who have built those rods. It kind of hit home for me that choosing to purchase from those companies helped keep those people in a job.

I think also that there's a little local pride in the fact that within about 20 mins of my neighborhood growing up there are three pretty good rod manufacturers (loomis, lamiglas, burkheimer). Maybe its that local connection that also drives my purchasing decisions?

[luckybalbowa]

Burkie == slow... He tries to keep production to around 500 a year. If you're not on the list, then the velvet ropes will keep you out. It's not to say he's a bad guy, to the contrary he's done a lot for the 2 handed guys out there. But in general his production can be considered Boutique rather than consumer, which is probably how he and his customers prefer it.

-- Cheers
-- James

Getting a rod from Burkheimer might take you a little time, but I had no problem when I ordered from him this last fall. Got my blank (and a few other components) within about 3-4 weeks. But, I guess it is hard to satisfy our fast food type of society. :)

[James Mello]

Getting a rod from Burkheimer might take you a little time, but I had no problem when I ordered from him this last fall. Got my blank (and a few other components) within about 3-4 weeks. But, I guess it is hard to satisfy our fast food type of society. :)

While it is the exception, I've heard of folks waiting *months* to get a Burkie blank. I myself waited 3 of them while a supplier I buy from assured me that a production order he made was going to get filled by Burkheimer. He ended up waiting a total of 4 months for the blanks he ordered, but by then I cancelled. They still sold like hot cakes due to the wonderful quality, but still....

The problem I have isn't pressures for myself, but rathers pressures from the people I build rods for. I'm slow enough as it is, so I don't need additional delays in time due to late delivery of parts...

With all of that said, with a lot of time and a big budget, I wouldn't mind getting a Burkie to build on. It's just one of those things where the time to wait isn't something I can afford.

[alpinetrout]

I would have been fine waiting for the blank if I would have been given an accurate estimate to begin with. Being promised 4-6 weeks, then checking in 12 weeks later and being told they would be finished the following week, then checking in again 3 weeks later and not getting any reply whatsoever isn't acceptable to me. There are enough other good rodmakers out there that I don't need to deal with people like that.

[fredaevans]

Getting a rod from Burkheimer might take you a little time, but I had no problem when I ordered from him this last fall. Got my blank (and a few other components) within about 3-4 weeks. But, I guess it is hard to satisfy our fast food type of society. :)

Your last sentence covers it all. Carry now 'retails' his rods through several large shops (flyfishusa, Kaufmann are two that come immediately to mind). His is not a huge operation in terms of staff, facilities, etc., but he makes an excellent rod from top to bottom of the range. To my knowledge, he builds all his own blanks in house.

Want to pay a bit more for pure 'eye candy?' Take a look at his new 'Vintage' series finish rods!:thumb: WOOF!!