Spey/Switch question

[Sloan Craven]

Hey, I was wondering what the differences are between a Spey rod and a Switch rod. I know the basic premises: A switch rod is designed for both single and double handed casting whereas a spey rod is designed for double handed casting only. So I am asking for the more technical information. I mean, if a spey rod and a swith rod are sitting next to each other, how would I tell the differences? What sort of lines do you use on a switch rod? How does taper differ? etc... I ask because I am interested in a switch rod but maybe I want a trouter? And I am sort of a nit pic about classifications.

[John Hicks]

Sloan,

Ask James about it. I was on the river with him a few weeks back and he used a switch that he made all day. Way under gunned for this particular river but I bet it would be a good summer rod.

[g_smolt]

The switch classification is basically a short two-hander...over 10', under 12', used to be colloquially called a "tweener".

I'm sure you could get pedantic about it, but for general purposes, the 10'6"-11'6" range would probably work.

IMHO,
Mark

[Sloan Craven]

I appreciate the imput, but I really DO want technical information. I just imagine that guys like Meiser and James Shaughnessy are putting a little more into the design than a shorter blank. But maybe Im just overthinking it.

[Brian Thomas]

Most of the guys that I know that own switch rods , have gone to long belly steelhead taper single hand lines .A friend of mine has the Loomis 11ft. 8/9 GLX , and it will make any cast you`d like when using an SA Steelhead taper line on it . You can double hand it and make any of the Spey casts , overhead casts , and single hand casts .The rod also likes the Rio 5/6 Windcutter for Spey casts , but you`ll have a harder time chucking the big uglies with this line , as opposed to the single hand line .It`s a pretty versatile rod , but not one I`d recommend if you wanted to use it primarily for Spey casts , especially if you haven`t spent much time with two handers .

[Robert B. Meiser]

Sloan,

No worries, your not overthinking it, but may perhaps not see the full picture.

Switch rods were originally developed in my shop by the request of anglers that were searching for a casting tool that would ease the pain of the repetative single hand double haul to acheive extreme distance deliveries when using shooting head line systems.

Cast a 9'0" 9/10 weight single hand rod all day, targeting 90' plus deliveries with a 500 + grain shooting head, and and it will generally define sore arms, wrists, and shoulders at the end of the day ...

... Especially if you are a "senior" member in the community.

Most of these guys that called my shop in those early days were searching for a tool that would acheive extreme distances efficiently, but (most importantly) wanted a rod with a married line system that that would do this without the physical burden of the single hand double haul delivery.

So enter the switch rod concept:

A rod and line marriage that these anglers could use to eliminate the physical burden of the single hand double haul delivery for their consistent long distance deliveries.

... Use two hands to acheive the same distance goal with far less physical expended energy on the casting delivery.

Rather then using only the only the forearms, wrists, and shoulders to acheive consistent 90' plus deliveries: They were now using two hands; distributing this energy requirement of long distance deliveries to the entire upper torso.

Which is the essence of the two handed cast ... Physcally a much easier pill to swallow.

Much easier physically, and much more efficiently delivered dynamically.

It's really all casting logic.

Most of our early clientel of switch rods were of this family of casters, but as time progressed ...

... These same casters matured in their delivery abilities, and they soon realized that they could not only eliminate the single hand double haul deliveries with two hands, but could also do extremely efficient anchor point spey deliveries as well with these same rods, if married to the right lines.

Again back to casting logic; Irregardless of the lenghth of the rod ...

... If married to the correct line system, the 10'6" to 11'6' rod will perform anchor point spey deliveries as efficiently as will the 16'0" rod within it's given parameters.

Will the 10'6" to 11'6" rod efficiently deliver consistently 100' to 120' + with a long belly spey line (utilizing anchor point deliveries) as well as the 16'0" rod ?

No they will not... Not even close.

But ... With two hands on the overhead; married to a short belly shooting head, they will easily acheive targeted 90' to 100' distances if they need to ...

... And when using the same basic anchor point casting dynamics, with the very same proper line management basics used with the 16'0" rod, will easily acheive 50' to 90' + deliveries when using correctly balanced line systems.

The switch rod was was not named so because one could switch from single to two hand delivery ...

... It was named so because the caster could switch from anchor point to overhead deliveries with equal ease.

In truth ... It was after comments made by one of my clients: A fellow by the name of Philip Paden.

He in conversation with me on a return from Nakia Lodge actually coined the term "switch rod" as he explained to me how he had successfully "switched" from overhead deliveries to two handed anchor point spey deliveries with the same main body section of a 10/11/12 WC and 15' type 8 sink tips ... This was he first year that Rio introduced the Windcutter with tips.

He was the first angler that requested that we take our standard 10'3" 8/9 wt rod and add a lower 3" grip assembly to convert this rod into both an overhead and two handed anchor point delivery spey rod ... Utilizing the same interchangeable tip, 39.5' shooting head line system.

Bottom line is ... Over the years the guys that use switch rods to their maximum potential now fully realize that the diversity of their applications are only limited to their own personal casting and fishing creativity, and that the knowledge of casting basics married with correctly balanced line systems will dertermine full delivery capabilties with these rods.

A switch rod in the 10'6" o 11'0' length with the grain carrying capability of 400 to 650 grains should be able to perform the following with efficiency:

The angler should be able to deliver a 400 to 450 grain Skagit family shooting heads with tips to 210 plus grains in tow in excess of 90 with two hands on the over head no worries ...

... And should also be able to deliver that same line system to 60 to 80 feet plus with classic anchor point spey deliveries as well, with the same tips in tow.

The caster should also be able to deliver short belly spey lines (50' to 55' belly length) with tips to 450/550 grains as easily with this same rod, in excess of 80' no worries.

The rod does not care, it is only designed to deliver grains ...

... And if designed properly ... Irregardless of the name on the blank ... It will do so with effiency if balanced to the right lines.

So in the big picture what will a switch rod do ?

Well ... In truth it will do do the same as any single or two handed rod will do within it's design capability.

First and foremost, it will only deliver within it's grain carrying capability.

From then on ... It will perform within a diversity only determined by the the casters skill level to manage lines within the rods given grain window capability.

Again this is true of any fly rod, regardless of it being a single or two handed rod.

Switch rods are not "magic rods" no more then they are "gimmick rods" ...

... Rather they are efficient tools that have a delivery capability only as diverse as the casters ability to manage line.

Meiz

[Matt Burke]

Hey Bob,
Great to see ya here. I really need to talk with you about that prototype you sold me. S2H15'3pc.9/10/11wt. March, 2004 You know, the one I overhead with. I'll PM you.
Matt

[Banzai]

Thanks, Bob. This explains a lot of misconceptions I had about this family of rods.

[James Mello]

Well, Bob pretty much gave the disertation on the subject :)

The only thing that I've had issues with at this point is this: It's harder than *HELL* to find a line that does sustained anchor casts well AND overhead delivery.

Perhaps it's my squeamishnish, but when I feel 450 grains load a rod with an overhead delivery, it make me kinda cringe. In addition I've found from my experiece that if you get one that does well, the other suffers...

The best I've had to date was an Airflo 40+ (10wt? 11wt?) on a 6/7 switch rod... Seemed to do both well, but I wished the sustained anchor casts were a little more than what I got....

[hendersonbaylocal]

Well, Bob pretty much gave the disertation on the subject :)

The only thing that I've had issues with at this point is this: It's harder than *HELL* to find a line that does sustained anchor casts well AND overhead delivery.

Perhaps it's my squeamishnish, but when I feel 450 grains load a rod with an overhead delivery, it make me kinda cringe. In addition I've found from my experiece that if you get one that does well, the other suffers...

The best I've had to date was an Airflo 40+ (10wt? 11wt?) on a 6/7 switch rod... Seemed to do both well, but I wished the sustained anchor casts were a little more than what I got....

James,

Are you talking about a singlehand overhead delivery with a haul or a two hand overhead? I am running a Hardy Mach 1 Salmon 8/9 (something like 350 grains) on my Dan Craft FT108 and am real sketched out about overheading it, so have pretty much just stuck to swapping between that and a WF8F for the time being until I figure it out.

[Robert B. Meiser]

James,

We have found that an easy go-to off-the-shelf line for the switchers are the Rio WC main body sections with 15' tips from floating to type 8 sink.

Most guys already have the WCs so it's an easy do.

These work very well overall for both anchor point and overhead with the 10'6" to 11'6" rods.

My 400 to 550 grain 10'6" (for example) wants the 9/10/11 WC body with Rio tips or Scandi poly leaders.

Head weight for this line is 320/340 grains and will handle tips to 150 grains in all sink rates, or a floating tip.

Head length is 24.5 with 15' tips ... This nets out at around 39.5 which is an ideal length for both overhead and anchor point with this short two hander.

Most short belly speys (50'-55') are a bit to long for overhead as they dump in the back.

The Skagit tapers do work well, but do not lay out as sweetly as will the taper of the WC main body.

Overhead deliveries seem to work and manage best with lines in the 35' to 40' range on most hands, and at 39.5' this configures as an interchangeable tip Scandi type shooting head for touch and go.

We always cut off the running lines on the WCs and loop on a Scandi running line to add distance for overhead or anchor point quarter down swing.

... Or loop on a level 8 wt floating fly line and a 15' floating tip to assist the two handed stack mend for highsticking or indy nymphing when using Trout technique with the switchers.

The standard running lines on the WC are too small in OD (not enough mass) to allow an aerialized distance stack mend beyond the length of the head.

Adding this level floating fly line as a runner will add 15'+ (beyond the length of the head) to the aerialized stack mend for both indy & highstick nymphing.

Really works well ... Been doing this dual running line set-up for years with the switchers and various shooting heads for all kinds of applications.

[Nailknot]

Meiz-

Could you offer a recipe for a 300-400 grain 6/7 10'6" switch? Windcutter in what size, with running line cut down to what length?

Thanks for the help!

[Robert B. Meiser]

Nailknot,

If the rod is rated at 300 to 400 grains I'd consider an 8/9/10 WC body at about 280 grains +- with tips to 120 grains +-

...Not sure about your running line question.

We generally cut all of the stock running line off at the head transition.

But I suggest that you try the stock line first before you perform surgery to make sure this grain taper is right for you and the rod ... !!!

Meiz

[James Mello]

James,

Are you talking about a singlehand overhead delivery with a haul or a two hand overhead? I am running a Hardy Mach 1 Salmon 8/9 (something like 350 grains) on my Dan Craft FT108 and am real sketched out about overheading it, so have pretty much just stuck to swapping between that and a WF8F for the time being until I figure it out.

Two hand overhead delivery is what I'm talking about. I've tried hauling single handed style, but it doesn't feel as good as 2 hand overhead :)

[Dr Magill]

This discussion is very interesting to me, having been experimenting with a line system that will primarily serve as a one hander but also accomodate a modified 2 handed cast when desired (limited back casting). What is the best method of determining the appropriate number of grains a rod can handle, aside from the weight rating listed on the rod? Is there a system that I can read about or is it more tuned into individual casting styles, experience, and unique rod characteristics?

[steveblue]

Dr Magill,

I am a custom rod builder and designer in Southern Oregon and I work with 3 very fine rod companies, Anderson Custom Rods, Meiser Rods and Beulah. Having a math/science and long rod interest, I have been developing several engineering models for 2 handed rods. You will want to start with Doctor Bill Hanneman's article "Common Cents". It can be found on the internet and will give you a foundation. His work is formed around single hand rods and for long rods some modifications should be considered. I have taken his work and created a very sucessful process that will produce an amount of energy that can be stored in a rod and the potential speed of it's release. A rod's energy divided by "your casting stoke" will give you the correct line weight for that situation. Casting strokes typical run from 4 (slow) to 10 (fast). When I am teaching 2 handed casting, I find my students usually have a casting speed prefrence and I can determine that prefrence and calculate their optium line for all rods that I have measured. If you have a favorite line and rod combo and I measure your rod and line, I can then predict a favorite line for you with any future rod. The speed of the rod can be done as well. As your skills develope, often your casting speed will increase. If this interests you and you would like to talk about specific rods and lines please call.

Steve 541-840-2594

[Dr Magill]

Thanks for the input- I have downloaded the article and will study it in detail.
Magill