Spey vs Z-Axis

[nativewiggler]

Ok, I am new to this so I am learning as I go, but I was checking out the Spey and the Z-Axis by Sage... The Z-Axis claims to be the best for all skill levels, but I am wondering if anyone else here has compared them...

For a newbie, what is the best for handling, use, and ease with learning? Any suggestions?

Remember price is not in the question, but the best for a newbie is... Thanks yall!

[Salmo Trutta]

Newbie or an expert it is hard to beat the C.F. Burkheimer 8139-3 ( 13'9" wt. 7/8/9 ). Very easy casting rod.
In addition to performance and blank rollout by Kerry with laser precision and quality you will get beautifully custom made rod for the price of a new Sage.
This rod has been on the market for about 4-5 years and is probably one of the best double-hand rod ever made. It excels with floating, sink tip and Skagit lines. Perfect for fish in 8-25 lb range.
Keep in mind that Sage is a master of marketing……

[Kevin Giusti]

Well I am fairly new to spey casting also. I know you probably are tired of hearing it but here it is again. If you have a chance go to a gathering where you can try out different rods with different lines. Even if it is a two or three hour drive make a day out of it. There are a lot of great spey rods out there with MANY different actions. Getting as many in your hands and trying out different lines with the rods will really make your decision on which rod and which brand to buy much easier. Trust me I learned this the hard way! Taking a few hour drive and trying out different gear and possibly even getting some casting help is much better than spending hours on the river struggling with the wrong rod and line. I recently did this FINALLY and it changed the way I look at rods now. And by the way if you get a chance to try a z-axis 7136 with a 400 skagit, :eek: I think you will like it, BUT by all means try as many as you can, what one person likes another hates! Good luck. Kevin

[Kevin Giusti]

Since you asked about sage spey rods here is my limited knowledge. The spey series come in a traditional action and a european action. The traditional action have a more medium action where the european are fast action. I have a 7141 which is a fast action and I like it although it is more of a 8 or even 9. Another thing with speys is you cant always go with the weight designations. Some rods can handle more grains, some less. I really like the sage 9140 traditional. It is slow but you can really feel the rod load deep. I also liked the traditional 8136. I REALLY liked the 7136 Z-axis but not the 7136 traditional little to slow for me. As you can see I could go on and on. If money is no object you may want to look into some of the custom rod makers Meiser,Burkheimer. They could build you an EXCELLENT custom rod. But again having some knowledge of what works for you and what type of fish and fishing conditions you will encounter will help both you and the builder pick out what will work best for you. Kevin

[Red Shed]

For a newbie, what is the best for handling, use, and ease with learning? Any suggestions?


There is no pat answer to your question. There are only the opinions of the people answering your post. Price is certainly no criteria nor are specific brands. A compentent instructor will be able to teach you to spey cast with any proper rod/line match. I think a medium progressive action is the easiest to learn with but that is just another opinion.
The best way to find something that works great for you is to find an instructor or someone experineced with two handers and try out their rods, or as has been already suggested attend a spey clave.
We are all different in size, ability, and personal preception as to what makes a great spey rod. Only you can decide what is best for "you".

[fredaevans]

Newbie or an expert it is hard to beat the C.F. Burkheimer 8139-3 ( 13'9" wt. 7/8/9 ). Very easy casting rod.
In addition to performance and blank rollout by Kerry with laser precision and quality you will get beautifully custom made rod for the price of a new Sage.
This rod has been on the market for about 4-5 years and is probably one of the best double-hand rod ever made. It excels with floating, sink tip and Skagit lines. Perfect for fish in 8-25 lb range.
Keep in mind that Sage is a master of marketing……

Several great bits of info above so I won't repeat, save for two STRONG endorsements. ST mentions the two Burkie rods above; I've got them both. I've taught a lot of folks how to spey cast and these two ARE my rods of choice to teach 'newbies.'

Hand either to a person and they'll be (reasonably) spey casting in 30 minutes. Here's a good over view of Kerry's operation in Washougal (sp?), Washington

http://www.westfly.com/feature/oldfeatures/feature_14.htm

[Red Shed]

Hand either to a person and they'll be (reasonably) spey casting in 30 minutes.

Yes, Kerry's rods are wonderful sticks but they don't by themseves teach a person to spey cast. The reason these "newbies" you speak of are reasonably spey casting in 30 minutes is because of the instruction you give them.
I can go back and find many posts where you've made the same statement as above and you were using a different brand of spey rod to teach the newbie, even your little 12'6"-6wt TFO. It's not about the rod, it's about the instruction.

[James Mello]

I'd save the dough wiggler for the time being and put it into some instruction. Since you are down south I'd contact Steve Buckner to get some lessons from him. If you don't have the disposable income, the both All About the Fly and Aaron Reimer have instruction on Saturday and Sunday for free. It's nice, but not quite the same intensity as a single instructor/single student would get.

The benefit of instruction is that they'll have different rods for you to cast, and you'll be able to readily decide whether you like 'fast' or 'slow'... More often than not, the first rod you start with may not be the rod you stick with. For instance I've had instruction from both Aaron and Mike Kinney (the teacher from AATF), and after casting their various rigs, I've gone from liking slower rods to liking faster ones. Without those guys as resources, I would have *never* been able to purchase an appropriate spey rod, and likely would have wasted a lot of money.

-- Cheers
-- James

[FT]

I agree with the folks who have said the best thing to do is get some spey casting instruction and try different rods with different actions. I've been spey casting since 1993 and the first rod I bought was a Sage 9140-4 "browine" because some folks I knew recommended it. Long story short, I hated the rod, it was too soft and slow for my tastes and I had to use a 7/8/9 Windcutter or 7/8 MidSpey to get it to be even a little OK for me (and this rod was rated for a 9/10 spey line so I was downsizing lines by 2 full sizes). Two years, many different lines, and a lot of unhappy days casting that rod later, I got to cast some fast actions, stiffer rods and it was a revelation to me. I had found rods that suited me and my action preferences.

As a newbee to spey casting, start with the type of single-hand rod action you prefer and look into 2-handed rods with a similar action (tip-flex, mid-flex, full-flex; stiff-tip, medium-tip, soft-tip; fast recovery, medium recovery, slow recovery; etc.). Then after getting some instruction, cast several rods that advertise the action you prefer before deciding which one you want.

Likewise, as has been mentioned before by Mike, Burkheimer and Meiser make wonderful rods; however, unless you really know what you want a rod to do, how you want it to bend when casting, the belly length spey line you will be using, the size of fly you will be asking it to cast, the stiffness of tip you prefer, how much you want the rod to bend when casting, etc., you are better off waiting until you get some proficiency in spey casting before spending the dollars for these custom rods, which would be built to your preferences and needs regarding casting.

Back to your question about the Sage Z-Axis 2-handers. They are wonderful, fast recovering, medium-stiff tipped, mid-flex rods that can cast any spey line from Skagit heads to long-belly GrandSpey and SA XLT's. They have a very smooth power transfer down the rod and plenty of butt strength to cast long, while still allowing shorter casts. This is the first Sage series of 2-handers that I like because they have no problem casting long-belly lines I prefer to use. To feel these bend to the butt, you need to overline the rod by 1 to 2 line sizes.

The Sage European 2-handers, are medium-stiff, mid-flex, medium recovering rods that were designed to cast Scando spey lines and which work fine with Skagit heads, short-belly (55' belly length) and mid-belly (65' belly length). To feel one of these bending into the butt, you need to overline the rod by 1 to 2 line sizes (this why you see some folks talk about the Sage 7141 as being more a 9 wt rod so they can feel it bend to the butt).

The Sage Traditional 2-handers are medium-tip, full-flex, medium-slow recovering rods. They required a slow casting stroke and will bend to the cork on nearly all cast regardless of distance. A lot of folks like them for Skagit head casting and because you feel the rod bend to the cork each cast.

The Sage VT2's are medium-stiff, medium-fast recovering, slightly stiffer than mid-flex rods. These I also like. And they are considerably less expensive than the Z-Axis though not as smooth and they lack the reserve power of the Z-Axis.

To put things in perspective and give a better picture of my biases with 2-handers. I use a T&T 1611 (16' 11 wt) for winter steelhead. This is a fast recovering, tip-flex, medium-stiff tipped rod. For summer steelhead, I use either a Meiser 16' Highlander series 8/9/10 (built and modified by Meiser for me to have a stiff-tip like I prefer) fast recovering, mid-flex, or a G. Loomis 13' 8/9 GLX medium-tip, tip-flex, fast recovering). I also have a custom built 18' 12 wt that is stiff-tipped, fast recovering, between tip and mid-flex that I use occasionally for winter steelhead.

[Big Tuna]

You can get a Meiser for a good deal less than the Z-Axis. I am buying a MKS 13-6" 7/8 that is a bit cheaper than the high end production rods and it's beautiful:) I'd definitely look that direction before spending a bunch on a mass produced rod...but that's just me.

[nativewiggler]

Thanks for sharing your personal opinions and stories with me...

I found a place, not too far away, that had a few sage rods - only a handful though... I am in a small town rural area and not many fly fishing shops around without driving long distances...

I was trying the various weights out and found I liked the feel of the 6 in my hand but still have to learn what rod works best for me in various conditions and with the particular species on that region...

I agree on the instruction from a friend and have a buddy that is going to show me the ropes once I get settled...

I have researched some online, but the pr BS for the products can get confusing for a gal, plus it's different when you are actually in the water using it to see if it lives up to it's rep or not... I am learning the "popular products" are not always the way to go and am sure I will wind up with many before I find a favorite...

Still, it helps to hear others views and what works best for them in different locations... Gives more info to use when I am looking and trying for myself, plus I am learning through you, so please keep sharing so I can become a more knowledgeable member...

[Salmo_g]

NW,

Since you're new to fly fishing, do you have any idea of what species you want to fish for, how and where you want to fish for them, and do you know that Spey fishing is more than slightly different than run-of-the-mill traditional fly fishing? I'm asking because I think you may have unintentionally wandered into this sub-forum of rather specialized fly fishing. Don't get me wrong; Spey casting is way cool. However, you really ought to own and learn to use a basic single hand fly rod competently before embarking on this fly fishing fringe venture.

Sg

[fredaevans]

Yes, Kerry's rods are wonderful sticks but they don't by themselves teach a person to spey cast. The reason these "newbies" you speak of are reasonably spey casting in 30 minutes is because of the instruction you give them.
I can go back and find many posts where you've made the same statement as above and you were using a different brand of spey rod to teach the newbie, even your little 12'6"-6wt TFO. It's not about the rod, it's about the instruction.

Well ... yes and no. A 13-6 8wt may very well be over kill for a 12 year old; there the TFO is a better 'fit' for the caster. Other way round is the 6-4 guy at 245 who can pick up an old engine block ..:D But the bottom line is I usually have several rods with me (more if I know I'm going to be giving a 'lesson') and will try to 'fit' a rod/line combo to the individual. (I'll guarantee it won't be over 14', or heavier than a eight (exception might be the Sage 9140-4 'greenie' due to its softer action.)

Edit: Someone above mentioned Steve Buckner. I've only met the fellow once (darned nice Guy!!); but all reports (including last week) have him as an excellent instructor. I've recommended him to several folks and all have come away very impressed with his ability to teach the basics of spey casting.
Fred

[fredaevans]

NW,

Don't get me wrong; Spey casting is way cool. However, you really ought to own and learn to use a basic single hand fly rod competently before embarking on this fly fishing fringe venture.

Sg
iagree
Sorry for the second post, but Salmo's nailed down a fact of life. ALL the mechanic's that make a single hand cast 'work' are alive and well in almost all spey casts. ( Including the 'One and a Two and a Three timing, 10 and 2 clock face for many of the casts, change of direction, etc.) With a foundation of how/why these work you'll find the shift to a spey rod to be 'a piece of cake.'
Fred