best clear intermediate sink for our cold water

[dmoocher]

OK folks...I fish exclusively with a clear intermediate in the salt and the line I have sucks...I think it's an orvis...stiff and remembers every loop on the reel. I'm going to get a new line but which one? I'm thinking about the 444 with the clear tip but I need a softer line that works better in the colder water in Jan/Feb...I'm looking for recommendations.

This is for my 6 wt for the rez. coho but I'll probably invest in the same line for my 8 wt for the upcomming pinks...though with the warmer weather, I don't remember the stiffness as much in the summer of '05.

Thanks in advance.

[Dizane]

I've always used the Rio Aqualux and never had any problems with it.

I really like it.

[prosopium]

The line a large population of salwater anglers use is the rio outbound. I just bought one a couple months ago and its alright. As long as you stretch the running line out before you start fishing it doesnt tangle so much. They make it for warm and coldwater fishing so make sure if you do buy this line you get the cold water but any fly shop around here will probably only have cold water line. I used to use a full sink line i bought for 5 bucks and this line is a lot better for casting distances. Ive also used a twelve foot sink tip (rio i think) and found that to be my favorite but it wasnt designed for saltwater so it broke down fast, it was much easier to pick up and change directions with.

[BFK]

I've got the SA clear, and it works fine for me--no too stiff, nor do I need to stretch it to get the coils out, since it doesn't really coil. I also have it in the clear tip, and it's fine, too.

[Preston]

I've found the Cortland, both clear and camo, intermediate lines remain flexible in any conditions I've encountered fishing the beaches. Puget Sound water temperatures don't vary all that much from summer to winter. Recently I've been using a Scientific Anglers Streamer Express with a thirty-foot, clear, intermediate tip which works well and, being essentially an integrated shooting head (rather like the Rio Outbound), casts long distances easily.

[ibn]

I have a couple rio outbound lines, they're great for Puget Sound fishing, they have a 37.5' clear shooting, while the floating running line is 82.5' - it's a 120' line in total. Like Prosopium stated it's essential to stretch your line when you start fishing. This is true with any line though. I can't emphasize how important it is to stretch your lines!

[Les Johnson]

I'm with Preston on the SA Streamer Express. I have been using the 200-grain intermediate around Puget Sound lately and like its properties for casting and minimal tangling in the basket or on the way out. Actually, truth be told, most of the integrated heads offered these days work pretty darned well.

Bruce Ferguson and I used integrated heads extensively in a a lot of our saltwater fishing situations from Puget Sound to SE Alaska and all points between. This fishing took place during a three year period while we were completing the new salmon book: Cortland, Orvis, Rio, SA and Jim Teeny all recceived high marks. I have kept them all spooled on reels for future service.
Good Fishing,
Les Johnson

[D3Smartie]

I use a floating outbound while my friend uses a int. tip outbound. great lines.

[Drag-Free Drift]

I've been using a Cortland 444 clear camo intermediate line year-round in the salt for about 18 months. It seems to be quite supple, and I've not had problems with kinking or coiling, even when it's very cold. I also have a 444SL with a 15 foot intermediate clear sinking tip ("Ghost Tip"), which I use on chum in salt estuaries in the fall and in rivers in winter. It has performed well under those conditions: stays soft with minimal coiling, even in very cold water.

[herl]

I'm using Airflo's 40+ line. It is very similar to rio's outbound, but has a nicer running line. The running line is thinner and slicker and I have found that you don't need to stretch it for it to work well. I have both types of line and my vote goes to the Airflo.

Eric

[Porter]

I have only used intermediate lines as part of a multi line system, Cortland 444 and Rio Multi-Tip...both are good performers for me but I really can't offer a opinion on a intermediate line exclusively. I was really disappointed with airflo but that is going back in some time now...maybe they have upped the performance because many here on this board are praising it of the last year or two :confused: Sometimes after R&D things improve :thumb:

[Bruce Davidson]

I'm using the Aqualux now. I started out last year with the Outbound but got totally frustrated with the tangling (yes, I could've done a better job stretching the line, but I'm too lazy). I went into PSFC and told Anil I was going to burn the Outbound. Someone overhead me and offered me ten bucks for it. It was a win-win-win: Somebody got an Outbound for 10 bucks, I got the Aqualux and like it better, and Anil sold another flyline. :)

The Aqualux doesn't seem to need nearly as much stretching, but some is still required.

[DeanHosh]

Hi Dave,

I just went on a search myself. Here is what I found so far.

Cortland Camo is very supple but the coating is not as slick. I just put on some dressing and it will probably shoot way better. Also it seemed that after some fishing and getting it wet is was slicker. This is my favorite for performance fish catching line so far. Also I needed to go up one weight. The standard weight seems light to me. I did not weight it.

Orvis Wonderline. Super slick but also very stiff. I found the stiffness trumped the slick coating. i.e. did not cast well. Seemed true to weight but the head taper seemed to be short. i.e. was wanting to have more line out before shooting but could not as the running line does not work as well to load the rod.

SA intermediate. Clear and medium suppleness. Nice coating and shot out well. With some line dressing it should really work well. Taper is very usuable for casting. Not too short before running line starts.

Rio Outbound. Just got this one very pronounced running like and head. Not sure about the welded loop. Seems like a "hold four loops in hand and shoot" line like a teeny T-xxxx line. Also just dressed it and it seemed to only moderatly improve the slickeness. As far as streching the line and removing coils, it de-coils quickly. (In comparison, I cut my finger stretching the Orvis line it had so much memory) Given the diameter of the head I don't think this is a real supple line on the fly end of the line. I mean the head is so pronounced compared to the shooting line, the head will mend like a mace.

So I think it is important to choose a line that will either be a true shooting line that your hold loops or use a basket and just load the head. Or it is a line you cast with 40-50 feet out and then shoot another 10-15'.

To me, it is sometimes more effcient to hold shooting loops and shoot because you get more fishing in and the accuracy is easier to control. But I like casting with 55 feet of line out and shooting the last 10.

Furthermore fishing from a boat is almost always a point and shoot situation. Boat rocking, partner there and need to cover ground or get it out quickly. River bank casting with point and shoot is good because the backcast is always short. On the other hand, float tubing allows for more casting and frankly I get a lot of fly in water time because I am not casting. Seem that shooting line from a tube would require a basket to get 4 loops. ( by a loop I mean one coil held on a finger draped down to about your knees). Wading from shore in salt, a point and shoot is usually better. More fishing time.

So it seems like a Cortland, Rio or SA and then choosing a shooting line or a casting line are the choices. I am thinking if this dressing works out on the cortland then I get the best of both. Slick like that cast well but is supple for good action while tubing.

Hope this helps,

Dean

PS: I am thinking about checking out the striper lines from RIO.

[Blake]

I've been using the Climax Ghost Tip line. It is a grey floating line with a 9 foot clear intermediate tip. It's great. I have it on my 6wt and 8wt and now two of my fishing buddies are also using it. Plus, it's made in the Cortland factory but cheaper than the Cortland lines.

[dmoocher]

Thanks for all the great info guys...I'm going to digest all the info and see what I come up with...also I got my Cabela's flyfishing catalog in the mail Saturday and they have a Cabela's brand clear tip F/I that looks promising.

I, like others, know I need to stretch my line but I, like others, are too damn lazy. I'm proud of myself for just rinsing everything off when I get home. I'm positive that a majority of the problems I have with the first dozen casts is directly related to my impatience to get after the fish.

Thanks again guys...

FYI...didn't get out to my beach this weekend but sent a co-workers husband out...he landed 5. Olympia waters are still holding coho.

[Anil]

I’m not going to add anything regarding particular lines, as there are many good responses already.
On the related subject of line stretching: Most of the lines discussed here have a nylon monofilament core. Virtually identical to the stuff you will find on tippet spools. Fly line designers can argue the virtues of different cores, for colored lines, but all are forced to use a monofilament core for ‘clear’ lines. Some nylon is less stiff and ‘coily’ than others, but all of these lines MUST be stretched before they are used.:ray1:
I use a method to stretch my fly lines that takes less than 30 seconds and doesn’t take any outside assistance: As you are pulling line from the reel to cast, simply hold the fly line between your rod hand and the cork while pulling on about a yard of line. Repeat this process until you have enough line to work with. You will be amazed by how much better any fly line will perform once it is stretched.
If my description is inadequate (it probably was), feel free to come by the shop. I will be happy to show anyone exactly what I mean.
Anil

[Joepa]

Regarding the SA Streamer Express, has anyone had an issue keeping a butt section on that line? Does it come with a loop? In the past with the Rio Aqualux tips, I've noticed that the welded loops don't last more than a few weeks and once you remove the loop the line doesn't hold a nail knot well because the outer coating is so brittle. Thanks

[Coach Duff]

Streamer Express baby.;)

[SeaRun Fanatic]

Teeny Mini-Tip is exclusively my subsurface line from the beach. It's an extremely versatile line if you have good line control skills. Fast water? Slow water? No problem, there's rarely a need to fish deep from the beach anyway. Spooky fish? Lengthen your leader.

In deep open water from the boat I use the T-200 most often. Of course I'm not fishing lings, either.

Also:

IMHO the clear thing is nothing but a fad, at least for our fish in the PNW. An illustration: a couple of years ago I was fishing off a beach on the Key Peninsula over a pod of large milling silvers, when I broke off my leader on a fish and found to my dismay that I had dropped/lost my leader spool. Fishing was good, and I didn't want to walk back to camp, so I tied a purple/pink clouser on to the ~10-12 inches of 20lb Maxima butt on my Mini-Tip and proceeded to hook another five or six fish in the couple of hours of tide left that evening:eek: . Hmmm... 5 feet of dark brown sink tip and ten to twelve inches of 20lb Maxima behind a bright yellow running line and lots of action... I seriously doubt a clear line would have made a noticeable difference. Possible, but after years of experience with the Mini-tip in the salt in WA and AK, I doubt it. Let's face it, these fish aren't rocket scientists!:rofl:

[Milt Roe]

And I was just going out to buy a clear line after reading all of this... It's been 20 years since I upgraded, and I figured it was time. I've got an old mini-tip in a box somewhere that Teeny gave me. I guess I'll dig that out and put the money I save into a new rod. Definitely time to upgrade the rod. I don't want people laughing at me.

[johnmetcalfe]

Hey
I hear the Rio Outbound is pretty good stuff.
Jm

[Les Johnson]

If your lilne does not have a rear loop, by all means serve one on made from Cortland braided mono; 30-pound up to 9-weight and 50-pound for 10-14 weight. Nail knots will tighten up to a point where they cut through the line coating and slip off. Loops made from Cortland braid mono, properly installed, will never give up and slip through the guides readily. Do not confuse handmade loops with those little packages of loops that are offered at many shops.
Cheers, and good fishing,
Les Johnson

[marcopolo]

I realize that if someone is using a certain line, he/she will tell you that it is the best.
I used a Rio Outbound for two years not knowing any better and switched to an SA Streamer Express last week after reading Les' post.
The short story is that , and I stress IMHO, I like it a lot better just because it does not tangle as much as the Rio (after streching the hell out of both of them). From after one day of fishing it: 75% less tangles.
And it shoots a whole lot better too. The running line is much stiffer and thus coils a lot better in my "Safeway Special" basket. It is a lot slicker too and slides more smoothly out of the guides.
If you are thinking about a new line, just run to your local shop and get one!

[dominic7471]

i have the rio outbound and love it~

[Jon Borcherding]

I have a Rio Outbound and it's my first line of this type so I don't know any better. :confused:
Hey! I thought ignorance was supposed to be bliss! :hmmm:

JonB

[Matthew Joyce]

The Rio Outbound is 120 feet long, suggesting it will cast further than the 100 foot SA Streamer Express. I'm not saying I'lll be casting out the whole line, but the difference in length makes me wonder. Up here in BC it seems the SA clear lines have a bad rep for coiling. Is the SA Streamer Express clear tip the same formula as the other SA clear lines?

[marcopolo]

I have heard that some people are using the Outbound on 2-handed rods. That could explain the extra length.
After 3 years of fishing the salt almost exclusivley, I have yet to meet somebody who can cast the full running line on a single handed rod. I am sure that person is out there, he/she is just hard to meet. But I suspect that the manufacturers are just trying to stroke our egos with the length thing. .

[ralfish]

Huh? ^^^^

There are a lot of beach casters that can readily put 90-110' out consistently with a 7 weight single hander. Having a line that is 90' or 100' long is a pain. 120' is much better and saves a guy from having to cut the head off and attaching it to a running line to avoid casting into the backing knot. You end up doing that anyways, because typically that is where the line begins to fail (just behind the head). 120' isn't about ego, just a reality for those who can cast...:thumb:

[marcopolo]

The guys at SA are real idiots! Offering you studs, lines that are too short! Shame on them!

[toadthedry]

I have used rio outbound, SA streemer express, rio striper line, airflow 40 plus. The SA streemer express in my opinion is the way to go. The outbound works well the first 5 or 6 days and then the running line tangles like crazy despite repeated stretching at least to me. I have tried several outbounds and always have this problem. The streamer express has far less tangling in the running line. They make it in a slow sink intermediate. As far as the line length difference, 100 ft plus leader length is plenty long.

Mike

[Matthew Joyce]

Mike, how did you find the Forty Plus, you didn't mention it how it performed. The running line is supposed to be top notch, but is the head an intergrated shooting head or a dramatic WF? Could you compare it to the SA line.

[ChrisW]

The 40+ has a real abrupt transition from the head to the running line which may tend to snag the salad or so I heard. It is also a lot heavier than the AFTMA rating suggests and has the shortest head of the lot: 35'. It also has the weight concentrated near the rear of the head like a triangle taper which is exactly the opposite of the Outbound which has the weight at the front. This will require a few more false casts if you strip the line in to the rod tip.

That said I have a 40+ floater and it is a killer Spey line for Single hand spey casts. I may use it in the salt but I think I'll keep it for the rivers.

I just lost an Outbound Intermediate line- left my reel at the narrows park! :beathead: Some lucky fool hopefully is enjoing it and my Orvis reel. It cast very nicely but I just replaced it with a Streamer Express for some reason. As soon as I get a chance to cast it I'll post my thoughts

Here is the SKinny on these lines from what I've found

Outbound: 37.5' head extreme weight forward short front taper. Weighs about a size and a half heavy for their weight rating. very thin running line.

Forty Plus: 35' head, delta or triangle type taper (very long front taper that helps make a nice presentation and helps with Spey casts), weighs about 2 sizes heavy for the weight rating, abrupt transition to running line

Streamer Express: 44' head 30' clear sinking section, smooth transition to running line, rated in both AFTMA ratings and grain weights so no guess work needed.

CW

[Anil]

Before I begin, a little disclaimer: We sell both Scientific Anglers and Rio lines here at the shop.
Both the Streamer Express and Outbound are excellent choices for beach fishermen. They are slightly different and different users may find they prefer one over the other. I have chosen 3 categories where these lines differ most. I then attempted to offer information about how they differ. Finally, I’ve offered my opinion about which line, excels in each category. These are MY opinions.

--WEIGHT:
These lines are both integrated shooting heads. This means that they are not designed to be carried, rather the head should be held outside of the rod tip and then ‘shot’. How much of the head is held outside of the rod tip is often referred to as ‘overhang’ and is dependant on both the caster and their rod.
Both companies market their lines by recommending a line weight and then also listing a grain weight.
Outbound:
WF5 = 210
WF6 = 240
WF7 = 275
WF8 = 330….
Streamer Express:
5/6 = 200grain
6/7 = 250grain
8/9 = 300grain
Now compare this with the A.F.T.M.A. standard line weight recommendations.
Fly Line Standards
1 Weight: 60 grains
2 Weight: 80 grains
3 Weight 100 grains
4 Weight 120 grains
5 Weight 140 grains
6 Weight 160 grains
7 Weight 185 grains
8 Weight 210 grains
9 Weight 240 grains
10 Weight 280 grains
11 Weight 330 grains
The recommendations from Rio are typically THREE full sizes heavier than a standard line. Scientific Anglers recommend slightly less weight, than Rio. Unfortunately, there are fewer choices from S.A. I really like the Streamer Express lines, but sometimes it can be difficult to match the lines with certain rods.
Advantage: Rio

--HEAD LENGTH:
I’m not even going to comment on the overall length of these lines. If you are able to cast more than 100’ while wading on an angled beach, you probably suffer from other problems like having too much money and a girlfriend who is too pretty and can’t get enough of you. My heart goes out to all of you.
The ‘head’ of a streamer express line is 32 feet long. The head of an Outbound line is 37.5 feet. If you are casting off of a particularly steep beach you won’t have to carry as much with the Streamer Express as you do with the Outbound. Alternatively, if you shoot 40’ of line with each brand, the Outbound will cast 5' further.
Advantage: Neither

--RUNNING LINE:
Given that you know how to stretch your line and manage it with a stripping basket, both lines should perform well. But, the Streamer express line is less likely to tangle for several reasons. First off, the running line is slightly larger in diameter. Secondly it is stiffer, and less likely to knot on itself. The intermediate line on the Streamer Express is also slightly slicker than the floater on the Outbound.
If you are not using a stripping basket, the Rio’s floating running line is less likely to get caught in debris and rocks. But…what are you doing without a stripping basket?!?!?
Advantage: Scientific Anglers
As you can see, I’ve elected to ride the fence and not declare a winner. I use both lines for my personal fishing. If you don’t want both, buy the one that fits your needs best.
Anil

[Matthew Joyce]

Great post Anil, very informative. I'm currently looking for a beach line and while I've ruled out the Rio Outbound and Striper but I'm debating whether the Streamer Express or the Forty Plus is a more appropriate line. Is the "handling line" portion of the head floating? If so, thats not so good for fishing in the waves, right? I'm guessing the floating running line doesn't have as much buoyancy because its so thin and thus gives you a straighter connection between you and the fly. Am I correct here?

[Anil]

The entire Streamer express is intermediate (at least the 'clear' version). The last time I used a 40 plus line it was configured identically to the Outbound (a floating running and handling line, with an intermediate head.)
You are correct that the models that feature a floating running line (Outbound, 40 plus) don’t suffer much in terms of forming a strait connection. The very thin, floating running line is quickly pulled under by the intermediate section.
Anil

[Matthew Joyce]

I'm going to make up my mind between the Streamer Express Clear and the Fort Plus Saltwater tomorrow. Any last comments? Does one cast farther? Customer service? Warentee?

Appreciate it,
Matt

[ChrisW]

I'm going to make up my mind between the Streamer Express Clear and the Fort Plus Saltwater tomorrow. Any last comments? Does one cast farther? Customer service? Warentee?

Appreciate it,
Matt

Just cast my SE 200grain for the 1st time, nice casting line. I found the line tended to kink and coil, and required stretching evrytime I reeled up, kind of a drag. Never knotted up on me though which is a plus. Caught some fish so I guess I'm happy with my choice.:clown:

CW

[Matthew Joyce]

So are you saying the Airflo has the best running line? And just to be clear, is it the Forty Plus Saltwater (blue/green running line) or the Forty Plus Extreme Distance (yellow running line I think).

[Tom Palmer]

I bought a Rio Intermediate Outbound line this spring for my 6 weight and have mixed feelings about it after 10 or so outings.

I think perhaps Rio went too far in an attempt to make this an extreme casting line. The running line is so small it certainly helps in perfect conditions to make a long cast, as the line provides minimal resistance running through the guides, but under fishing conditions I'm not getting the distance I'd expect.

First, the small running line for me tangles like crazy. Even when I stretch the heck out of it, I'd estimate one out of every four casts results in a tangle. And I ALWAYS use a stripping basket. I'm already fearing my response when I lose my first fish due to a tangle in that thin line.

Second, this line is a killer on my stripping fingers. I've found a stripping guard is a MUST for me with this line. I received two of the worst cuts I've ever gotten from a line when I first started using it. One of them looked like someone dragged a knife across my finger. I'd expect this from gel-spun, but not from an integrated 6-weight fishing line. I'm curious if the SA has this issue.

I'm a big Rio fan. I use their floating lines, and really like the DeapSea 400 and 500 grain integrated lines when I head to Loreto.

But for me, I've been a little disappointed in the Outbound, especially considering the $70 price tag.

Tom

[Richard]

I'm going to make up my mind between the Streamer Express Clear and the Fort Plus Saltwater tomorrow. Any last comments? Does one cast farther? Customer service? Warentee?

Appreciate it,
Matt


So, what did you do? And how do you like it? :confused: