Hair Hackle Wet Flies

[pittendrigh]

Here's a link to my latest fly tying project:
Resurrecting Hair Hackle Wet flies (ala Franz Pott, Henry Wombacher, George Grant)
without weaving anything. These really are good wet flies:

http://montana-riverboats.com/Pages/Fly-Tying/Sandy-Pittendrigh/Nymphs/Hair-Hackle-Wet-Flies/index.html

[Be Jofus G]

Awesome. Thanks for the link man!

[obiwankanobi]

I read in Fly Tyer mag about two summers ago of a guy, perhaps the same guy, who made hair hackles for giant stoneflies that he fished. He used D rib and mallard feathers for the body and moose or elk hair for the hackle.

These flies looked pretty great, but the hair hackle took awhile to make so I stopped after tying a few flies. Enjoy the project and post pics if you can, since I as well as others would love to see!!!

[pittendrigh]

RE> "I read in Fly Tyer mag about two summers ago of a guy, perhaps the same guy, who made hair hackles for giant stoneflies that he fished. He used D rib and mallard feathers for the body and moose or elk hair for the hackle. "

That article I'd like to see.
What is D-rib?
I'll try to find time to make step-by-step tying photos of my version soon.

[obiwankanobi]

So last night I went routing around in my stack of Fly Tyer mags and found it. I will post further information about it for you. D rib is a soft plastic material that is flat on one side and convex on the other. This gives a great rib like effect for everthing from midges to stoneflies.

[FT]

The flies in the link are nice looking, but they are not true to the original Pott's flies patterns. The Pott's flies had bodies made of horse hair with a floss stipe down the center of the body. Pott's didn't use striped bodies (those that look like they were ribbed) on his flies. For most, he simply tied the body of horse hair (mane or tail) in whatever color the fly called for and wove a stripe of floss in the belly. Some of them had bodies of a single color of dyed horse hair (like the Orange) and some had a two color horse hair body without the belly stripe. The hackles were mostly of black bear (the black, brown, and ginger color phases) and badger hair (I've seen some tied with fox hair or coyote hair hackle) applied as a complete 360 degree collar at the front of the fly. Pott's didn't use wing cases. Pott's also had a hair weaving machine on which he made his hair hackles.

There are many folks who tied Pott's flies without weaving the hair hackles. People like Al Troth (who showed me how to tie Pott's style flies) and George Grant (famous for his Grant Stoneflies) didn't weave the hair hackle. They simply tied the hair in first at the front of the fly pointing out over the hook eye, then made the woven horse hair and floss body, after which they tied the hair hackle back into position and whip finished the fly. Tying them this way is rather fast once you get used to it. I tied many dozens of the Brown Bear Black and Brown Bear Brown for Tim Tollet, the owner of Frontier Angler in Dillon, MT when I lived 90 miles from there.

Also, tying the wovern horse hair and floss body is also very easy because it is simply using overhand knots made with several strands of floss tied over the horse hair with each turn of it as the horse hair is moved forward to form the body.

Heck, even Dan Bailey used a variation of the Pott's woven body to produce a set of stoneflies he called the Bailey Mossbacks which were tied originally from dyed raffia (a type of grass) with a floss belly stripe. Later he went to using dyed nylon for the body because it was easier to work with than the raffia because the raffia had to be soaked before tying in to prevent it from tearing and to keep the body nice and tight.

Troth still ties them, but somewhere along the line he started using cotton embroidery floss for the belly stripe because it is multi-strand, twist floss and is therefore easier to keep together as you weave it for the body.

The biggest hassle today is in finding horse hair in both natural and dyed colors for the bodies. However, you can use the plastic Swanandaze, V-rib, D-rib, etc. matierials as a substitute for the horse hair. Heck, you could even use plastic lacing found in craft stores for the body instead of horse hair, or one of the several long-fibered synthetic salt water fly winging materials.

The Brown Bear Black pattern:

Body: Black horse hair with an orange floss stripe along the belly
Hackle: Black phase (black colored) natural black bear hair as a collar

The Brown Bear Brown pattern:

Body: Brown horse hair with a yellow floss stripe along the belly
Hackle: Brown phase (brown colored) black bear hair

[pittendrigh]

I agree.......
I said my hair hackle wet flies where "quick and dirty" imitations,
and not in any way the real thing. I'll have a few dozen
new photos online by the end of the summer, of diagrams
of the step-by-step weaving processes involved (for the real Pott
flies, not my fast and lazy imitations).

You can see examples of the real thing at:
http://montana-riverboats.com/Pages/Fly-Tying/Franz-Pott/index.html

.....click on the "Shadow Box Flies" link to see the whole collection.
These were taken from a collection I borrowed from Mike Wilkerson,
who was the last person to actually run the Pott fly company, 2 or 3
new owners after Pott's death in 1956.

Also, I think the Brown Bear Brown and Brown Bear Black were
Henry Wombacher flies, not Pott flies, that Al Troth also liked to tie:
http://montana-riverboats.com/Pages/Fly-Tying/Al-Troth/Nymphs/Brown-Bear-Black.html

But I do disagree with one (minor) point you made. George Grant did indeed weave his hackles.
He wrote and self published a elaborate manual detailing his own personal hackle weaving
technique, which was different than the Pott technique. George himself even got one
detail wrong. George said (incorrectly) that Pott used a three thread strand weaving
technique. But Franz Pott actually wove his hackles around two strands. I'll have diagrams
published soon, written by his tiers, after his death, that show that much without doubt.

Finally, if Al Troth taught you some fly tying tricks you're a lucky guy. He's the best in
my book.

[obiwankanobi]

[QUOTE=pittendrigh;265832]
But I do disagree with one point you made. George Grant did indeed weave his hackles.
He wrote and self published a elaborate manual detailing his own personal hackle weaving
technique, which was different than the Pott technique. George himself even got one
detail wrong. George said (incorrectly) that Pott used a three thread strand weaving
technique. But Franz Pott actually wove his hackles around two strands. I'll have diagrams
published soon, written by his tiers, after his death, that show that much without doubt.
QUOTE]

I picked up the issue of Fly Tyer magazine and the article was about George Grant. He did weave his hackles, using hair from ox, badger, Chinese boar and natural paintbrush fibers. Each strand was tied at its base, around both strands of string. After this was complete the hair hackled string was wrapped, near the head once the body was completed.

Not to add opinion here, but I have tied a few flies this way. To crochet a hair hackle takes time and patience. IMHO if you are interested in duplicatiing ties, invented by a legend or collectively by a few tying legends, have fun and they will certainly be conversation pieces.

If your objective is to get flies in the box, then quite honestly a few biots, turkey feathers, copper wire and dubbing, can create a great artificial that won't leave you crying if you break off. BTW again to share my opinion, the hair and plastic ribbed body are much too stiff for my liking. I like curved hooks, fuzzy flies, soft hackled feathers and raffia or turkey for the abdomen, but that is me just being anal about what I want to fish with.

[pittendrigh]

...nother fine point I'm now not so sure about. I thought the Brown Bear Brown
and Brown Bear Black (which Al Troth likes to tie, or did anyway) where originally
Henry Wombacher flies. But now I'm not so sure. I couldn't find anything
on the internet. Perhaps Al will come to the FFF get together in LIvingston MT this August.

Maybe those were Al Troth flies after all.
Does anybody know whose flies those originally where?

RE> fuzzy nymphs
Polly Rosborough was the master of the fuzzy nymph, no?
He sure tied some very good looking flies:
http://montana-riverboats.com/Pages/Fly-Tying/Polly-Rosborough/index.html

[FT]

Pittendrigh,

Yes, I've been very fortunate throughout my life to have lived in PA, MT, and now WA and to have had folks like Al Troth, Dave Whitlock, Bob Jacklin, Pat Barnes, Frank Johnson, Steve Gobin, Ted Neimeyer, Charlie Brooks, Joe Humphreys, among many others teach me many tying techniques.

You are correct, I mispoke about George Grant not weaving hair hackles. I only saw George tying one time and since I was only interested in how he made his stonefly bodies that was all I paid attention to and all I asked questions about. When I lived in Boulder, MT ('87-'91), I used to run into George at times on the Big Hole below Melrose during Trico time and he was an old man then, but a great fisherman.

I always assumed that the Brown Bear series were Potts flies since they have the same type of body and hackle.

I also agree that Roseborough was a master of the fuzzy bodied, soft hackled fly.