how to keep buggers from spinning

[tkww]

I've noticed that the woolly buggers I tie up sometimes spin like crazy in the water. And other times they hardly spin at all. I'm tying them fairly small, and the hackle I'm using is fairly stiff. I bought a dyed-grizzly saddle from Cabela's, and the smallest hackle is inevitably stiffer than the biggest hackle. I'm hackling from the front to the back and then wind it with rib.

Anybody know any tips for keeping a bugger from spinning? I've thought about adding lead w/ strips on the sides and bottom to help keep if bottom-heavy, but I haven't tried it yet. Do I need softer hackle? Less hackle? Any other suggestions?

[kodiaksalmon]

"Woolly bugger" is a broad range of fly. What else can you tell us? What do you have for a tail? What size are these? Eyes? Is it spinning in one direction, or just unstable in general?

I've never had hackle spin a fly, but I've not fished many buggers. I still don't reckon it would, except maybe in very small sizes. I could be wrong. If you've got eyes, and they're fighting the hook point for balance, you could spin a fly, or at least have it ride on it's side.

What about your leader and flyline? The trouble may not be in your fly.

[Josh Brower]

wind from tail to head, that might solve the problem.

[tkww]

"Woolly bugger" is a broad range of fly. What else can you tell us?

size 10 and 12 4xL, bead head, 8-10 wraps of lead behind, pushed up into the bead. Marabou tail. I can see how unbalanced eyes would be a problem, but I've usually been using a bead.

What about your leader and flyline? The trouble may not be in your fly.

I'm using the same leaders as I use with nymphs, and even dries. I sometimes have had a problem with the occasional rubber-legged dry, but it's happened with the bugger on multiple rigs, so I'm sure it's not the leader/line. The last one I used I could lift out of the water after one cast and it would spin for 20 or 30 seconds. It would spin so hard the tail would lift up and spin out (centrifugal force). Serious spin. And yet one I tied up a few months ago doesn't really spin at all. :confused:

[kodiaksalmon]

Well if you've got a fly that doesn't spin, put them side by side. Compare them. Piece by piece: hackle length, body material, tail length, etc. Is the bead centered, or is it too big for the hook, and tied off-centered?

[scottflycst]

TKWW,
Your problem is very common for buggers, here's why. When you use stiff hackle and palmer it forward or backward with few or fewer turns it acts like a propeller as your fly moves thru the water causing it to spin. The key to solving this problem is two things. 1. Use soft hackle, hen or chickabou is what I use. 2. Wind your hackle forward using several turns, especially at the head of the fly. I always give two turns of hackle at the head. After you tie one up, test it in your bathtub and see if it spins. Adjust your hackle turns, size, and type accordingly. A soft collar of aftershaft works well also.
Scott

[bfic]

A buddy of mine complains about this problem - I think the propeller thoery is correct. To stop the spinning My buddy uses a Norvise - ties in the hackle and spins it on the thread before wrapping. This way he gets random hackle fiber direction instead of a distinct spiral.

[tkww]

wind from tail to head, that might solve the problem.

I just might give that a try.

[tkww]

A buddy of mine complains about this problem - I think the propeller thoery is correct. To stop the spinning My buddy uses a Norvise - ties in the hackle and spins it on the thread before wrapping. This way he gets random hackle fiber direction instead of a distinct spiral.

Interesting, and something I could try. Having an integrated rib like that...do you know if he ties from the tail up and then ties off the hackle, or if he's winding from the head down and also counter-ribbing it?

A.K. Best has a section in one of books where he talks about the spinning/propeller effect, and he attributes it to hackle. He was talking about dries specifically. His counter-measure is to wind hackle in front and then in back of the wing post and then back in front again. It breaks up the shape and also splays the hackle out--points it both slightly forwards and backwards instead of just straight out from the shank. And while I've never had that problem with traditional-style dries, the ones I do have spinning problems with are stimulators, who's hackle shape bears a little resemblance to the bugger. :hmmm:

[Kent Lufkin]

Seems to me that when fishing a heavy streamer with both lead and a bead, you might want to increase your tippet size a bit. While 5X might work fine for a size 16 parachute Adams, was me, I'd be using 3X for a big wooly bugger or Stimulator.

K

[Brian Thomas]

Tie in your tail & body as usual , with or with-out a bead . At the head of your fly , tie in the hackle with one side stripped . Wind to the rear of the fly , and then back to the head of the fly . Tie off . Problem solved .

[bfic]

[QUOTE=tkww;270046]Interesting, and something I could try. Having an integrated rib like that...do you know if he ties from the tail up and then ties off the hackle, or if he's winding from the head down and also counter-ribbing it? [QUOTE]


I'm not a norvise user but it seems to me you have to start at the head to get the hackle wrapped on the thread and then wrap back to the tail. You could tie it off at the rear, counter rib it or wrap it "front to back to front".

[Derek Day]

I would use small barbell eyes instead of the bead. That would solve your problem.

[tkww]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions! I'll be giving some of these a try over the next few months.

[TallFlyGuy]

A buddy of mine complains about this problem - I think the propeller thoery is correct. To stop the spinning My buddy uses a Norvise - ties in the hackle and spins it on the thread before wrapping. This way he gets random hackle fiber direction instead of a distinct spiral.


Ah cool, another "+" for my norvise. I just thought my vise had some super MOJO and when tied on a Norvise, I hooked more fish...Dang it.:rofl:

Justin

[jhemphill]

one thing I saw in the video for my Nor-vise is to tie the hackle from head to tale then back to the head that way the hackle doesn't make a spiral

[tkww]

Is there something about the norvise that makes this possible only with this vise?

[TallFlyGuy]

Is there something about the norvise that makes this possible only with this vise?


Pretty much!

[Kent Lufkin]

Is there something about the norvise that makes this possible only with this vise?

Not at all. You can Palmer hackle front to back to front on any vise - just tie it in behind the eye and wind it down and back again. The Norvise just makes it easier.

But doing so won't reverse the direction of the 'screw' on the way back up the shank. The only way that's gonna happen is if you can wind in the opposite direction along the shank.

Your bigger problem's gonna be finding a single hackle feather long enough, especially if you're using a long shank hook. I'm not sure how you could pull it off using two different feathers.

K

[tkww]

Not at all. You can Palmer hackle front to back to front on any vise - just tie it in behind the eye and wind it down and back again. The Norvise just makes it easier.

That's what I was thinking.

But doing so won't reverse the direction of the 'screw' on the way back up the shank. The only way that's gonna happen is if you can wind in the opposite direction along the shank.

Your bigger problem's gonna be finding a single hackle feather long enough, especially if you're using a long shank hook. I'm not sure how you could pull it off using two different feathers.


Good point about having to reverse direction to change the angle. With smaller sizes I think feather length wouldn't be as much of an issue, but I can see how it would be with larger flies. And I don't see a two-feather solution either, unless one (or both) wasn't counter-ribbed, but I like to counter-rib for durability. Maybe barbells are a better solution to all this, but I'll definitely be trying a couple of these hackling ideas.

[TallFlyGuy]

Not at all. You can Palmer hackle front to back to front on any vise - just tie it in behind the eye and wind it down and back again. The Norvise just makes it easier.

But doing so won't reverse the direction of the 'screw' on the way back up the shank. The only way that's gonna happen is if you can wind in the opposite direction along the shank.

Your bigger problem's gonna be finding a single hackle feather long enough, especially if you're using a long shank hook. I'm not sure how you could pull it off using two different feathers.

K

Uh, no Kent. Palmer the hackle on the tying thread itself is what he was referring to. Then take the "Roped hackle" and palmer that front to back or back to front. You can do it without a norvise, but I'd like to watch someone do it in a timely fashion.