Skagit Cheater?

[TallFlyGuy]

What are some signs, problems, or evidence that you might need a 5-10 ft cheater for you skagit line?

Thanks

[Steve Buckner]

As you know, the keys to a succesful spey cast are anchor placement, anchor creation, d-loop creation, followed by a well executed forward cast. It is imperative that the line be taught throughout the cast. A phrase that Al Buhr uses frequently is that "casting is about having constant tension in the fly line".

One should be able to control the momentum (force with direction) added to the fly line during the cast so that the anchor lands where it should. Secondly, their should be sufficient anchor that the anchor does not slip - and there should not be too much anchor so that it impairs the forward cast.

That said, especially for you tall guys, it is very easy for the rod tip path to be so great that the line is not anchored properly or in some cases, the line may not anchor at all. If you're seeing this occur frequently, you would probably do yourself a favor by adding a cheater. I use a 14 foot rod for my skagit line along with a 5 foot cheater. In your case, a 10 foot cheater would probably help you maintain more anchor. But a 10 feet cheater may still not solve your problem. You're going to need to watch where you land your anchor, what your anchor looks like, and apply the appropriate amount of force on the forward cast. With those heavy skagit lines, it's very easy to over power your forward cast and have the anchor slip.

[TallFlyGuy]

Steve, Thanks for the response.

That's what is happening. I have to make sure my anchor is placed "textbook" or I get this Whoosh sound from me loosing my anchor. Anytime I try to get my d-loop up (from ski-jump), or put power into my d-loop to make it a v-loop, the anchor slips and all goes to hell. I found myself doing some side arm funk trying to compensate for loosing my anchor. Figured it was a length of line issue. Will add cheater and see what happens.



Justin

[kodiaksalmon]

I'm an idiot. What's a cheater, what does it do, and where does it go?

[Christian Brewer]

I no expert on Skagit casting or lines, but I'll stake a stab the cheater explanation...

Skagit heads are designed to be used with a tip of some sort with the total length of the head and tip to be in the range of 3-3.5 times the length of the rod and most spey casters use the shorter spey rods (12-13ft length range). So if you are using a 14ft or longer rod (or if you are very tall :confused:) and want to Skagit cast you will need to add a cheater section in order to keep that head length in the 3-3.5 times the length of the rod range so that you can still properly anchor your cast.

:beer2:
Christian

[fredaevans]

First, Skagit Heads are NOT 'all things to all people.' Personally, I wouldn't own one, they bring nothing to my party nor my 'style' of casting.

With your 'Board Name' and you wanting to use a 14 foot rod you already have 'two strikes' against you with a skagit head system. What I (recommend and) use are the Scandi heads. These are set up to be 4 to 4.5 times the rod length; the 'extra' will solve most of your 'problem.' You cast these just like you would a skagit head, but the extra length allows for a more 'normal' anchor placement/stick.

Fred

[Sloan Craven]

Fred, I think it was Steve using the 14', not Justin (TallFlyGuy).

[TallFlyGuy]

Are the Scandi heads, friendly/conducive to large weighted flies like the skagit heads? What's this I keep hearing bout scandi heads and long poly leaders etc?

[Sloan Craven]

Yes, and
My vague understanding is that scandi heads basically dont have tips, so putting tips on screws up the action, so you can use poly leaders (floating, sinking , intermediate,) to help get fly down to where you want. I've used poly leaders on long belly spey lines and I actually think its easier to cast than tips.

[kodiaksalmon]

Thanks Christian. Makes sense. I'll buy that.

[speyfisher]

I've been using Skagit type lines for a couple of years so here is my take on the situation.

Easiest to answer is what are cheaters and how to use them.
As previously explained, they are used to add length to the line. They are to be looped between the body and the tip.

The technique used in casting a Skagit line differs from that of casting a normal length line. Due to the extreme short length of these lines, the normal touch & go, or what Simon Gawsworth refers to as an airborne anchor, will not work. You need more anchor. The entire length, or at least a major part of, the (sink) tip needs to be on the water. Some say half out & go. Whatever. Skagit systems work by utilizing the water load generated by all that line on/in the water.

Skagit lines, as you may have noticed are quite fat & heavy compared to other lines to be used on the same rods. Think of it this way. The tip, which may weigh 100 grains or more, as well as the fly are the payload. In order to cast a payload like that, you need a line that has enough mass (weight) to carry that payload.

Most Skagit lines and heads are around 27 feet long. Add a normal length 15 foot sink tip (like most of us have a couple bajillion of them laying around) and you have a 42 ft line. Divide that by three and you get 14. Surprise, surprise, surprise! Three times the length of the most common length spey rod out there.

So, If you are taller than the average guy, and using a longer than average rod, you need to add some length to get back within the 3x to 3.5x rod length line.

Going to a (longer) scando line/head and adding a sink tip probably ain't gonna' do it. Those lines may not have the mass at the tip to turn over heavy sink tips and big flies.

You don't need to use a 15 ft (sink) tip. Some guys make up their own tips by splicing, or looping, shorter sections of sink tip to appropriate lengths of floating or intermediate line. The idea being that the total length of line remains the same regardless of the length of the sinking section.

Therefore, the casting stroke/timing remain pretty much the same.

Hope this helps.