Single Foot Guides

[TallFlyGuy]

Anyone tried single foot guides on their spey rod? I mean not just the first two guides, but up the whole rod.

How about the the Silicon Carbide guides. The claim is polished "SIC" rings are 12 times harder, dissipate heat four times faster and are one-third the weight of stainless steel. The result of course is longer shooting casts, and less wear on your lines.

Just curious

Justin

[Jim Fitz]

I used single foots on a 13' rod I built. It is quite unconventional. I consulted with some folks who understand fly rods and what their weak points are before doing this (e.g. Kerry Batson, Dan Craft). I was concerned about the pure strength of the guides and wraps when I started to reel in all those 20# steelhead (ha). It was pointed out to me that there are plenty of rods with single foots that pull in very large fish. As far as rod action goes, it is my understanding that single foots don't change rod action much as compared to the same rod with double foot guides. Contrary to what I would think but that is what a lot folks say. The biggest impact is that it makes the rod lighter which is what I was trying to do (besides being easier to wrap (half the number of feet if my math is correct) but the difference is pretty minor in the bigger scheme of things).

Having said all that, if I build another doublehander I will use double foots if for no reason other than tradition.

I like silicon guides all the way up on single hand rods for say 5 or 6 weight or heavier and light single foot guides for 4 weight and under (I personnally like REC recoils) but for spey rods, I think people lean away from them because there is less shooting of line and more of dealing with a lot arielized (I love that word) line. They are also heavier which will affect action especially as you get out there on the rod so it is more pronounced on a spey rod than a typical 9 footer.

Another other reason some folks like silicon guides is corrosion resistance (if you use some that are good in that department (titanium:eek:)) which is nice when fishing in the salt but almost all spey fishing is in freshwater.

I am curious as to what others have to say on this and curious as to whether I am the only one on the planet with single feet on a spey rod.

[TallFlyGuy]

I used single foots on a 13' rod I built. It is quite unconventional. I consulted with some folks who understand fly rods and what their weak points are before doing this (e.g. Kerry Batson, Dan Craft). I was concerned about the pure strength of the guides and wraps when I started to reel in all those 20# steelhead (ha). It was pointed out to me that there are plenty of rods with single foots that pull in very large fish. As far as rod action goes, it is my understanding that single foots don't change rod action much as compared to the same rod with double foot guides. Contrary to what I would think but that is what a lot folks say. The biggest impact is that it makes the rod lighter which is what I was trying to do (besides being easier to wrap (half the number of feet if my math is correct) but the difference is pretty minor in the bigger scheme of things).

Having said all that, if I build another doublehander I will use double foots if for no reason other than tradition.

I like silicon guides all the way up on single hand rods for say 5 or 6 weight or heavier and light single foot guides for 4 weight and under (I personnally like REC recoils) but for spey rods, I think people lean away from them because there is less shooting of line and more of dealing with a lot arielized (I love that word) line. They are also heavier which will affect action especially as you get out there on the rod so it is more pronounced on a spey rod than a typical 9 footer.

Another other reason some folks like silicon guides is corrosion resistance (if you use some that are good in that department (titanium:eek:)) which is nice when fishing in the salt but almost all spey fishing is in freshwater.

I am curious as to what others have to say on this and curious as to whether I am the only one on the planet with single feet on a spey rod.


Good points Jim..

I would think with the single foot silicon Titanium guides, you would actually reduce the weight overall. With the extra string to wrap, as well as extra epoxy on the wraps, it should make it heavier using double footed guides compared to single foot guides. Interesting to say the least.

Justin

[Sloan Craven]

The biggest impact is that it makes the rod lighter which is what I was trying to do (besides being easier to wrap (half the number of feet if my math is correct) but the difference is pretty minor in the bigger scheme of things).
.

Jim, not to hijack this thread, but Im confused on the statement that single foot guids are easier to wrap. Im really a very green, amateur builder. However, I founf single foot guides being harder to wrap. I found it was harder to keep them in place while actually wrapping and harder to keep aligned. With two foot guides I can have one foot taped while I wrap the other foot. Everything stays in place nicely, and I spend less timee trying to wiggle the guide into place after Im done.
So what's your trick?????

[Kevin Giusti]

I used single foot guides (not strippers) on a forecast 12'6" I built. They seem to work fine and really cant say if they make a differnce or not. I also used single foots on the tip section of the 11'6" forecast I built as I had read somewhere it was supposed to "help out" the action a little. Again I used standard wire singles, no inserts so cant comment on the insert part. I think Bob Meiser talked about the use of single foots guides in his article on building two handed rods if Im not mistaken. A search should turn up the article somewhere. So far they have held up fine and perform well enough. I think I will stick with snakes though as I just like em better. Sloan for singles I use that guide glue stuff (sparingly) to get the quide on where I like then I cut a narrow piece of masking tape and wrap that around the guide foot ( carefully though as you dont want to lift the front of the guide off the blank) then wrap up the guide foot and when you get to the tape remove it and finish off your wrap. Kevin

[Marty]

The only issue I can see with using single foot guides is with the use of multi tip lines. As the loops go through the guides they sometimes will catch and jam. If you get a hot fish on and it rips the loops through all of the guides you run the chance of pulling a single foot out. As far as changing the action, it hard to tell.

[Sloan Craven]

Sloan for singles I use that guide glue stuff (sparingly) to get the quide on where I like then I cut a narrow piece of masking tape and wrap that around the guide foot ( carefully though as you dont want to lift the front of the guide off the blank) then wrap up the guide foot and when you get to the tape remove it and finish off your wrap. Kevin

Thanks Kevin. It still sounds more complicated than convetional guides, which confuses me as Jim says its easier.

[Jim Fitz]

Sloan,

My main point in saying it is easier is that there are half as many feet to wrap, ignoring the strippers:eek: of course. But I have very little trouble holding the feet in place while wrapping.

I use the medical tubing approach and found it to be the best for me. The trick is finding a couple of sizes of tubing that will handle the various sizes you would need - there is a big difference between the lower end of a large rod and any tip. Once the thread has a grip, cut off the tubing. Fuel line tubing sold by hobby shops for gas powered remote control cars works good. It is cheap. You simply cut it into very small o-rings. I usually tape the top couple of guides as the tubing isn't small enough. You can also buy small o-rings at a place like Lowes'. Used to be able to anyway. Blue masking tape cut into very thin strips and wrapped on tightly also works well.

I also use 2 or 3 locking wraps when I get to the ring finished with a couple of regular wraps. Makes me feel like it is stronger. Not sure it really is.

Wrapping double foots are easier but for me, but not by much.

Kevin - I think you are right about Bob Mieser writing about using single foots on switch/two handed rods. I am guessing enough snooping around on his web site might lead you to the discussion. One could just call him and ask for his opinion on the matter. I tried to do that when I was getting ready to buy but he was at a clave as I recall.

Justin - as to whether titaniums with SIC inserts are lighter than the extra thread and epoxy, I am not sure. I think the titaniums still come out a little heavier. I am sure someone on rod.building.org could say for sure. I would be curious to know. I put Titans on my beach rod. Spendy but they'll withstand a nuclear blast.

[speyfisher]

I recently purchases an Echo Classic Spey rod which has sf guides. They are kind of noisy as you work the head out. After that. no problem. My own personal opinion is that a lot of what you hear, pro or con, is hype. They are probably cheaper for high volume rod manufactures as there are only half as many wraps. But that may be offset by higher purchase price. The Echo rod works well enough for me I don't lose any sleep over the guides.

[luckybalbowa]

Justin,

I built a 7/8 Batson two hander with single foot guides. Seemed to work just fine. You can borrow it if you want to see what you think.

Mark

[luckybalbowa]

Thanks Kevin. It still sounds more complicated than convetional guides, which confuses me as Jim says its easier.

I think they are easier because you cut your wrapping in half, which if you are doing any intricate wraps can be a lot of work.

[Sloan Craven]

I think they are easier because you cut your wrapping in half, which if you are doing any intricate wraps can be a lot of work.

Yeah, i wasn't seeing the forest for the trees. :beathead:

Thanks everyone for not getting down on me for a stupid question like that.

[TallFlyGuy]

Yeah, i wasn't seeing the forest for the trees. :beathead:

Thanks everyone for not getting down on me for a stupid question like that.

Sloan, No big deal. You can get masking tape that is about 1/8 inch wide. Just use that on the guides when you start them. Using single foot guides on one handers goes so fast! I'm thinking of putting a two hander together this winter. We'll see.

Justin

[TallFlyGuy]

Justin,

I built a 7/8 Batson two hander with single foot guides. Seemed to work just fine. You can borrow it if you want to see what you think.

Mark

Sounds good Mark. Just run it over to me tomorrow.... Ok :D


Did you ever get that Burk lined/figured out?

Justin

[luckybalbowa]

Sounds good Mark. Just run it over to me tomorrow.... Ok :D


Did you ever get that Burk lined/figured out?

Justin

i would love to come by tomorrow and drop it off, get my fall kalama slamma ('nook, coho, steel). I could send the rod out to you and get it from you when I come out there in December. It's not getting much use out here. The steelhead run on the Provo river is really crappy this year. :)

As for the Burkie, I'm just going to buy a windcutter 8/9/10 and I think that will fix 'er up.

[Marty]

lucky hold off on the rio 8910 I have a new line you will want to try and a new rod (echo DH) unlike the clasic it has snake guides. The DH rod costs less than the clasic so its not a money thing. I still like snake guides on my two handers.

[Salmo_g]

I haven't used single foot guides on any fly rods I've built. And I don't intend to. Partly I prefer the look of traditional snake guides. Second, rods get bashed around a lot in service, in boats and in beating through the brush. I feel that a single foot guide is more vulnerable to being bent or pulled off the rod, and perhaps compromising its serviceability. If I ever get too lazy to wrap guides with two feet, I'll probably just discontinue rod making.

Sg

[luckybalbowa]

lucky hold off on the rio 8910 I have a new line you will want to try and a new rod (echo DH) unlike the clasic it has snake guides. The DH rod costs less than the clasic so its not a money thing. I still like snake guides on my two handers.

Marty, I sent you a PM

[TallFlyGuy]

I haven't used single foot guides on any fly rods I've built. And I don't intend to. Partly I prefer the look of traditional snake guides. Second, rods get bashed around a lot in service, in boats and in beating through the brush. I feel that a single foot guide is more vulnerable to being bent or pulled off the rod, and perhaps compromising its serviceability. If I ever get too lazy to wrap guides with two feet, I'll probably just discontinue rod making.

Sg

I think it's more of a performance issue, not a laziness or durability issue. I was thinking it might be the best of both worlds. Less wraps and less epoxy on the rod equals lighter rod and better rod performance. On top of that, if the guides dissipate heat better, are slicker, and lighter than regular snake guides, why not go to them? Easy they are hella expensive. For the Sic titanium guides, I think they are over $130 just for the guides themselves on a spey rod.

[TallFlyGuy]

Something quoted from Meiser in an article.

"Rods that are specifically built to be used as two handed overhead rods are a bit of a different breed. With them, there is a real advantage to using full ceramic guide systems. These rods are designed to throw a wide variety of shooting head, and advanced weight forward line systems. These specialized lines will often utilize braided mono, or even braided spectra running lines. Most of the time, the running line is what will be in contact with the guide system, not the heads. Braided mono, and especially braided Spectra can wear through non-ceramic guides quite easily. The full use of ceramics for this application now becomes quite practical. I prefer the Fuji LSG-SICs or the CLAG Alconites for the runners, and the higher standing SVSG SICs or standard height CLNAG Alconites for the strippers. The solid Titanium framed ceramics have excellent applications in salt water environments. They are not only absolutely functional, but look beautiful on these sleek, thoroughbred two handed rods. The Fuji TSGs single foot’s and the TSVSGs double leg strippers are excellent."

With the shooting heads and shooting line that the skagit lines are so well known for, it might also be advantageous to use the ceramic guides Bob mentions above.
Justin

[Marty]

I have only one rod with single foot guides (trout rod) and have never fished a two hander with singles so I still have some work to do but here is my question. If single foot guides are so much better why are not more rod companies using them? I can remember seeing the first single 15 + years ago. The only rod company that was using them was Loomis they were building mostly spinning rods and I always thought that was the driver force behind the use.

I grew up with the under standing that snake guides were designed to dampen the vibration of the thicker line used in fly fishing. When casting a fly line the line goes through the guides in a circular vibration. As the line passes through the guide the guide acts as a funnel. As the line nears the tip the guides get smaller reducing the vibration even more. This straightens out the line so there is less friction. Less friction longer casts.

The stripping guide was added because of the extra friction added to the guide when stripping the line in. The stripping guide impedes the cast but is necessary to dissipate the heat (friction) created by stripping not by casting. They add more on big game rods to dissipate heat created by long hard runs. Each stripping guide added effects the cast but there has to be a balance to keep guide wear to a minimum.

With a single foot guide you only get ½ the design of a snake guide. This may or may not have an impact on line dampening. The rod that I have seems to do fine shooting running line but tends to stack up when casting the belly. I guess I am a traditionalist when it comes to fly casting. I use fly lines to get it done, not some glorified weight to jack out a bunch of mono. If you look at Dec’s new Echo’s they have snake guides. There must be a good reason why all of the top rods still have snake guides.

[TallFlyGuy]

I have only one rod with single foot guides (trout rod) and have never fished a two hander with singles so I still have some work to do but here is my question. If single foot guides are so much better why are not more rod companies using them? I can remember seeing the first single 15 + years ago. The only rod company that was using them was Loomis they were building mostly spinning rods and I always thought that was the driver force behind the use.

I grew up with the under standing that snake guides were designed to dampen the vibration of the thicker line used in fly fishing. When casting a fly line the line goes through the guides in a circular vibration. As the line passes through the guide the guide acts as a funnel. As the line nears the tip the guides get smaller reducing the vibration even more. This straightens out the line so there is less friction. Less friction longer casts.

The stripping guide was added because of the extra friction added to the guide when stripping the line in. The stripping guide impedes the cast but is necessary to dissipate the heat (friction) created by stripping not by casting. They add more on big game rods to dissipate heat created by long hard runs. Each stripping guide added effects the cast but there has to be a balance to keep guide wear to a minimum.

With a single foot guide you only get ½ the design of a snake guide. This may or may not have an impact on line dampening. The rod that I have seems to do fine shooting running line but tends to stack up when casting the belly. I guess I am a traditionalist when it comes to fly casting. I use fly lines to get it done, not some glorified weight to jack out a bunch of mono. If you look at Dec’s new Echo’s they have snake guides. There must be a good reason why all of the top rods still have snake guides.


Good points Marty.

I agree with you on most that you have said here when Non ceramic single foot guides are the thing. The Sic. titanium single foot guides on the other hand I'm not sure about. They are expensive as hell, so this is why I believe most rod companies do not use them. I have a sage 896 sp with sic tits ptyd(sic titaniums) on it. It is noticeably easier to shoot line. Almost no "friction" feeling when I shoot line. Again, the guides were expensive. I think close to or over $100. Regular cheap guides would of cost only $20 or so. Not sure/can't remember.

Spey rods have almost double the amount of guides, so therefore I would think double the friction, and double the wear on line. It's kicking at tradition I know, but so are skagit lines, graphite rods, weighted flies, sink tips etc. etc.

Justin

[Marty]

Justin
I am sure you are right when it comes to cost and about kicking tradition. I used a Skagit line (one of the new ones from airflow) for the first time last week. I was up in BC fishing big flies in off colored water. The line performed well but I did get tired of stripping line. Yes it is a break from tradition but the line was not much different from the lines I used to build back before wind cutters. So is it really a break from tradition. The single foot vs. double foot debate is no different than the Skagit line vs. long belly line or the intruder vs. old school flies. It’s in the most part a feel good thing. I fish a strip wing or dee style fly, why because it feels good and I try to add a little tradition it all aspects of my steelheading. I use hardy reels for that same reason. Is my way better, I would even say no but it is what makes steelheading so special for me. I will always try to stay connected to the traditions, mostly out of respect for sport but I am not so set in my ways that I wont try something new. Single foot guides are just not high on my list.

[James Mello]

I personally feel that the larger the rod and the larger the payload of the line, the less likely you'll notice any difference in performance between SF and DF guides. For instance (as a generality), a skagit head system can be anywhere from 350 grains to 750. The difference between SF and DF guides is roughly 2x, and somewhere around say 120 grains. Most of that isn't in the tip, so as such, as the higher the grain loads on the rod goes, the smaller the addition of mass that DF guides have as a ratio of that and the payload. For smaller rods, SF all the way. Feels crisper, casts better. Bigger 2 handed rods? Dunno, but I'd err on the side of safety than performace, especially since the performance gain (IMO) would be negligable.

-- Cheers
-- James

[Marty]

In an earlier post I said the DH costs less that the classic that was wrong it is the other was around. The DH with the snake guides retails for more than the classic with single foot guides. Still think the cost of the guide is not the reason rod companies use snake guides over single foot guides.

[TallFlyGuy]

Ah a great discussion. No real facts out there, just opinions and feelings to pour out on to the computer.



http://shop.mudhole.com/Shop-Our-Catalog/Silicon-Carbide/TLSG-Fly-Guides;jsessionid=ac112b791f43eb08cabec8cb438482f4 95a51f5203f5.e3eTaxeKbh0Te34Pa38Ta38Oahb0


this is the description...

"Silicon Carbide Concept Guides with Titanium Metal frames are 45-65% lighter, over 3 times stronger than guides with stainless steel frames and will remain totally corrosion-free in saltwater use. Titanium is the ultimate frame material and only Fuji has it. Just think of it; a guide you will not have to worry about again. Guaranteed!"


Marty, mabye the cost isn't the reason rod companies choose to put snake guides on all their rods. I'm sure the cost helps!

Justin

[James Mello]

Ah a great discussion. No real facts out there, just opinions and feelings to pour out on to the computer.



http://shop.mudhole.com/Shop-Our-Catalog/Silicon-Carbide/TLSG-Fly-Guides;jsessionid=ac112b791f43eb08cabec8cb438482f4 95a51f5203f5.e3eTaxeKbh0Te34Pa38Ta38Oahb0


this is the description...

"Silicon Carbide Concept Guides with Titanium Metal frames are 45-65% lighter, over 3 times stronger than guides with stainless steel frames and will remain totally corrosion-free in saltwater use. Titanium is the ultimate frame material and only Fuji has it. Just think of it; a guide you will not have to worry about again. Guaranteed!"

Justin

The cost of those guides hovers around $100 a set. The other thing is, they are lighter when compared to other standard framed steel guides, but single foot wire are still lighter and they are equivalent to or only marginally lighter than double foot guides. That's not to say that you can't or shouldn't use the other guides. But like I said, for rods that I build, it's generally SF guide for smaller rods, DF for spey and larger single handed....

[FT]

Like Salmo,

I use only double foot guides on 2-hand rods. These are the reasons for doing so: 1) they have two feet holding them onto the rod, making it much more difficult to pull one out of its wraps when walking through the woods; 2) the large size double foot snake guides I use for running guides don't stick up nearly as far from the blank as similarly sized single foot ceramic, SIC, etc. guides do, making catching a guide on a tree branch less likely when walking riverbank trails; and 3) double foot snake in sizes #6, 5, and 4 (which are the sizes I use on 2-hand rods) have a pretty large working diameter and are less prone to having interchangeable tip loops hang-up on a guide than the similarly diametered single foot ceramic guides.

I do use ceramic double foot casting guides as strippers in sizes 20 (or 18) and 16 (I only use a single stripper in size 16 on rods of 12'-13', and I use 3 strippers size 20,18,and16 on 17' and 18' rods). I also like ceramic tip tops with a #10 ring guide on 6-9 wt rods, and on 10 and 11 wt rods, I like a ceramic tip top with a #12 ring guide. I use such relatively large strippers and tip tops to help the thicker spey line shoot and on tip tops to prevent the line from being squeezed by the top as before the running line is out the rod.

[Marty]

I guess I was not thinking of that guide, I assumed you were talking about a SF wire
guides

http://shop.mudhole.com/Shop-Our-Catalog/Fly_3/BLSFG-Fly-Guides

Money would be a factor if you used a $5.00 to $7.00 guide.

I am sure the SFs work well for shooting but I stick with the DFs for casting.

[Jerry Robillard]

I got an Echo rod from Red Shed on Peck Idaho and was quite please to find that Echo builds their rods with single foot guide. I built a St. Croix last year using single foots, and it was much harder to build that the double foot. I think that it is an improved way to build rods.

[Marty]

The Echo Classic has SF guides but the new Echo DH has snake guides, there has to be a reason. If SF guides are the answer why are the major rod manufactures not using them.

Cost? I don’t think so, a $100 guide set for us would only cost $40 for them and that is not all that much more then what they are spending on guides.

Kicking tradition? Maybe, but I don’t think so. Fly fishing equipment changes every year with all kind of improvements. SF guides have been around for a long time. If they were better, with the techno movement it would have been an easy sell and you would see them on all fly rods

SF guides have pros and cons. Most all of them have been posted. You just have to add it all up and decide for your self.

[luckybalbowa]

The only reason why double foots might be used in my mind are for heavier fish. If you look at gear rods, heavier rods usually have double foot guides (although that is not always the case)