Spey FISHING techniques.

[jcalderon]

I hear a lot about spey casting, lines, grain weight ect.... what I woud really like to know is how versitile a FISHING tool a spey rod is. A lot of people have mentioned swinging flies for steel. That is great, but what about salmon fishing? do you guys swing for salmon? can you nymph a spey rod? what are some of the less talked about techniques using a spey?

[obiwankanobi]

You can swing for "Anything you want, cause me so.."--Full Metal Jacket

In all seriousness in 5 or 6 weights you can catch SRC's or even fish your local rivers for just about anything. Salmon are a great prospect with the spey. Yes, they can be caught with short strips, but I prefer a slow and deep swing. I was doing that this weekend with ease. I wanted to fish deep, so I fished egg patterns with an indicator with my spey. It is very easy once you get used to it and soon the spey rod will be an attachment to your arm.

The only limiter to the spey is that the line is casted through water loading, so still water is not necessarily off limits, it is just much easier to use a single hand rod. Lastly, if you are fishing streamers, it would not be the most efficient tool since you depend on your line on the water to load the rod. Stripping the line in to your tip would result in a few overhead casts to be able to get ready to perform a spey cast. Hope this helps.

[ak_powder_monkey]

swinging for salmon is just about the most effective way to catch em... If you can get the depth right, or they are coho which prefer stripped flies for some reason. I'd imagine speys could be very useful for nymphing on big rivers, I know I've used single handed double speys in a few weird nymphing situations

[yuhina]

To my understanding... (please correct me if I am wrong in the following message)

Spey is a style of casting, single handed or double handed rod are all effective by using spey cast to deliver the fly. I did some spey casting ,experimentally, from 3wt 6'6 to 7wt in some tight vegetated creek, and it did work great.

There are two major types of spey casting, it was classified depends on the "anchor” types.
1. Traditional spey: the anchor is "kissing the water", is type of touch and go, minimized the stick of the water tension.(e.g. Single spey and snake roll cast) Also, the whole motion of the cast is continuously exercised. Keep the line tension from the start "lift" to the "fire out". (Rio Grand Spey is the line suitable for this type of cast)
2. Skagit style spey. This type of spey use "water borne anchor", use the maximum water sticky tension to load the rod. The sequencial motion of this cast can be break down to several parts. (e.g. Double spey, snap T) ( I was very very impressed by Al Buhr's Skagit casts). It also very easy to cast a heavy shooting head, use several “broken down” motions to bring up the heavy head and also "increase" the water tension to load the rod and fire out. I start to use this type of casting not long ago and really love it for casting heavy flies. I think skagit cast have it's advantage in shooting streamers. The reason I say that is, you shoot out a long running line, and work your fly all the way back, then use the heavy head to shot them out again. Almost no false cast involve, it works very efficient to me. (Skagit line, heavy and short shooting head work for this type of cast)

So, I guess my answer is spey can do it all...but...
For big water, I use double handed rod, combined with different lines. it save energy.
For small water, I use single handed rod, combine spey and overhead casts. Depends on the creek condition. (carry a 13' stick around in a creek wasn't fun...) This is just my opinions...for your reference.

[fredaevans]

Yuhina, VERY nice job covering the ground.:thumb:

Fred

[Hal Eckert]

Big river steelhead/salmon moving water use the spey for dry, nymphs, wets, streamers - winter 13-14 foot with sink tips, summer 12 -13 footer with floating line.

Smaller rivers (steelhead, salmon) use 12 foot spey or single hander, depends on the width and foliage over hanging etc.

GLs surf (big water) - 14 foot spey with over head casts.

Pond fishing use single handed rods, don't like spey in this scenario.

Saltwater surf (big water) 14 foot spey with over head casts.

:beer2:

[Marty]

yuhina not to correct you, just to add. The Spey is a river in Scotland. The anglers fishing the Spey had to develop a different form of casting because the banks of the Spey were blocked by high banks, trees and foliage making overhead casting impossible. The two casts, the single spey and the double spey, evolved from the basic roll cast. The single was used on river left (river running from right to left) and the double was used on river right (river running from left to right). Anglers in the UK never got their feet wet and most of the casting was from the bank or a fishing station. One of the first comments I heard over there was “you Americans use too much water to cast”. You rarely see them spey casting when an overhead cast can be used. The thought is, line splash (the mouse) caused by spey casting spooks the fish. Two handed rods were originally developed for salmon fishing. Unlike trout, Atlantic salmon would hold mid current causing a need for longer presentation. The longer the rod made the longer casts easier. The rods became so long, 15 to 20 feet, it became necessary to use both hands. I am sure that the so called casts of today were invented, discovered, developed or what ever you want to call it, long before anyone was fishing a two handed rod in the US.

Here is where I feel there is a slight disconnect. Skagit casting is more a reference to the system use not the cast. The Skagit crew did not invent anything new they just refined a system that matched the fishing conditions on the coastal rivers of the North West. The basic rod design changed from long and stiff to short with flex. The fly line was completely reworked. The line being used in the UK at that time was just a basic DT. The Skagit crew took the DT and starting chopping it up to develop more load and bulk up front. The change in the line was the greatest difference. With the shorter lines the casting stroke became more compact. The use of water became an essential part of the cast. The double spey became the ‘go to’ cast on both sides of the river because of the greater stick created by the cast. The Skagit crew was doing something new and played a big role in present day two handed casting but the Skagit was not the only river where two handers were being used. I saw my first long rod in the mid 80s on the Ronde. I thought the guy was crazy as I watched him overhead casting a dry line. After watching him land two fish I thought, maybe not. I did get to meet the gentleman (Jim) and his fishing partner (Harry) later that night at the café. He told me there was no better way to fish for steelhead. The next one was on the Deschutes. John Hazel had one of Kerry’s first prototypes and was developing a system for dry lining. The systems being used on the Ronde and Deschutes were closer to the traditional systems but again were being refined for summer run steelhead. So I guess what it really comes down to is, you can call it what you want, Spey casting, Skagit casting, or Ronde casting, but in the end you are merely defining the system or style, not the cast.

[Flyborg]

I busted out my new spey rod last week and fished the local for salmon, and while it's a bit late in the season I got some coho and a decent chinook. I'm a hack at spey casting so I was pretty stoked. I use Skagit heads so I can get a little bit of strip on the hang-down. Probably 75% of my takes from salmon (chinook and coho) are on the first strip after a long swing and pause at the hang down. My friends who spey for salmon feel that's an anomaly, they get Chinook on the dead drift/swing and coho at the typical beginning/end swing strike points. None of the guys I know are getting Coho with traditional sink/fast strip methods; we fish Coho just like we fish steelhead, in the same water, and catch plenty of them.

I watched Steelie Mike fish the mainstem Columbia with a spey rod for Shad this year. He did better than me with my single-hander (although I think he got most of them on my Olive sharp-steelie!) I'm pretty sure he hooked into a sturgeon as well.

I watched JJ Nymph/Indicator with a spey this spring while salmon fishing. Technically it should work better than single hand--you've got better line control and it's a lot easier to cast the indicator with a spey rod.

[g_smolt]

You are only limited by your imagination, your creativity, your fishing ability, and your ability to do something that isn't necessarily "by the book".

Nymph. Swing. Jig. Throw dries, get ultra-long drag-frees. Put a pinner on it, lob eggs.

The rod, reel, and line don't care.

[Marty]

To say you can use almost any fly fishing technique with a two handed rod is a little miss leading. Take fishing a dry fly for an example. There is nothing better to swing a dry but to fish a dead drifted dry fly with a two hander is a little awkward. Two handed rods can be fished with an overhead cast but mending and stripping line becomes an issue when making upstream presentations. Again there is no advantage to nymphing with a two handed rod because of the need to control the line with the off hand and there is also a fatigue factor. I am not saying it cant be done just that there are better rods suited for the different techniques. It really doesn’t make much sense to buy and two handed rod to nymph, jig or lob eggs when a single handed rod would perform better for those techniques. Setting the hook with a long rod is far less effective. When you see a fish take a dry you have to lift the rod to set the hook. The longer the rod the longer it takes to take up the stretch of the leader and line and the flex of the rod same with nymphing, indicator goes down the slack has to taken out before the hook will set. The take on the swing is to a tight line and there is no need to take up the slack. Can you use a two handed rod to swing flies for salmon, you bet, in fact you can use a two hander to swing flies for most fish that live in moving water. Echo is coming out with a two handed 4 weight. The rod was developed to swing flies for trout sized fish. Could you nymph with it, sure, but again not as effectively as a shorter rod. A two handed rod is designed to swing a fly, if you are looking for a long rod that can do more check out the switch rods.

[g_smolt]

To say you can use almost any fly fishing technique with a two handed rod is a little miss leading.

It is actually spot-on.

I didn't say it was the most effective tool; I merely pointed out that, as per the original query, they are versatile tools that you CAN do most anything with.

Just 'cause ya can don't mean ya should.

And if you can't nymph with a 5126 and a long-belly line, you can't nymph at all. That is one of the greatest tools for big water - big bug situations there is.

IMHO, and YMMV,
Mark

[Wayne Kohan]

Setting the hook with a long rod is far less effective. When you see a fish take a dry you have to lift the rod to set the hook. The longer the rod the longer it takes to take up the stretch of the leader and line and the flex of the rod same with nymphing, indicator goes down the slack has to taken out before the hook will set.

The length of the rod has nothing to do with the amount of slack in the leader. In fact, a longer rod would need to move less distance to take up the same amount of slack as a shorter rod. If I was fishing 20 feet out from where I was standing, would it be easier to take up all the slack with a 1 foot rod, or a 19 foot rod? That's why many of us use 10 ft instead of 9 ft rods when nymphing for steelhead. Plus it is easier to mend your line so as to keep less slack in the line.

I think the main disadvantage of 2 handed spey rod use for dries, nymphing, and lake fishing is, as was said above, the awkwardness of stripping line in or feeding line out with only one hand on a long heavy rod.


Wayne

[Marty]

I guess slack was a poor choice of words. Stretch is more suited for the point I was trying to convey. I think if you look at it as a leverage issue you would better under stand my point. Many think that landing a steelhead on a two handed rod is easier because of the leverage created by the longer rod. This is far from true. A shorter rod creates double the amount of leverage. Here is an example take a 16 foot 2X4 and an 8 foot 2X4 and cement them a foot into the ground. Now take two 30 foot sections of nylon rope and tie one to the top of each 2X4. Now think about which board is going to flex the most as you pull on the rope. To get to the breaking point you will have to pull the rope of the 16 foot 2X4 a lot farther. Now think about the stretch in the nylon rope. Which of the two 2X4s is going to take up the stretch faster? The shorter the lever the less it will flex and before anything can happen the flex has to be taken up. The dynamics are the same with fly rods. The shorter the rod the greater the leverage, the greater the leverage the faster flex and stretch is absorbed. To get a good hook set a lot has to happen. The first thing is the flex in the rod then the stretch of the fly line and then the stretch of the leader. The whole system has to came tight before the hook will drive home. You can also run into this same issue with the same length or rod. The faster the rod the faster the flex is absorbed. Nymph with a 9’ glass rod and a 9 ‘ tip flex and tell me which rod will perform better. A softer rod my lob cast better but what you gain in casting you lose in the set. There are some advantages to nymphing with a longer rod. Casting, mending and line management for sure but setting the hook goes to the shorter rod.

[yuhina]

Thanks you all for the explanation and inupts!

For the other discussion about setting the hook. I do feel setting the hook for the 2 handers are tricky and more difficult for me than the single-handed.
Here is my thought.
1) longer rod have bigger slack "arc" than shorter rod. Just like a circle, bigger diameter circle have bigger "arc".45 digree pie of 16' vs 8'. But you just need move 45 digree to take out all the slack. right? (the same 45 degree! in theroy...) the same in fishing? no... because 45 degree movement for longer rod DID travel longer distance, expecially in the rod tip. They do suffering from more wind resisitence longer... so I would say longer rod take longer to take out the slack. Wayne was talking about "leader"...I agree... I do NOT think the leader sit in the water have that much difference. water tension will help you to set the hook anyway.

2)Marty's stretch effect will be more profounded as the longer line were out from the longer rod.

3)The longer rod also have more "inertia" than the shorter rod though. They tend to be slower in every move... my .02 for your reference.