Somethings NOT right

[Buck]

So I've had this 8140 for just under a year, I think, and I have used it quite a bit, but I'm not overly impressed, it takes so much to get the line out there.
On the river the other day I met a guy casting a Meiser (sp), I think it was an 7wt.?? A MKS (Mike Kenny Special?). He told me I could cast it, so I took him up on it. Wholly Crap! Now the problem I face here is that if that is what a cast is supposed to be like, then I'm not lined right. I asked him to try the FLI 8140, and he said Wholly Crap, that sucks. Ya, I know! He thought it was not loading right. I'll agree to that. So please give me your expertise. Here is what I have.
the 8140 FLI Of course an 8 wt.
Rio 9/10/11 Windcutter/ With diff. tips.
A Cortland Endurance Reel

I thought that the 8 wt. and the 9/10/11 line was the problem, but after talking with Aaron in Carnation, he said that that line is (insert some local spey guru's) favorite rod and line combo. He also mentioned that each person has there own feel and just because someone else likes it (guru or not) doesn't mean you'll like it...he was talking to me ;)
So, picking up suppies in Seattle at another store, they said the same thing, it's not the line set up, even though you could try something else, it just maybe not what feels right to you. It doesn't feel right, to me by the way.
So you opinion matters as I'm gathering info for a purchasing a new line. The Meiser MKS I tried had a Skagit line, but isn't that what I have already if I disassemble the Windcutter. Some portion of a Skagit, like the running line and the the head or NO??? What would you choice if you bought this rod, and you wanted to get a line? I will be testing lines with Aaron when I get back into town, but I'd like to be prepared before I try them so I have an idea what I'm casting. Also I know there is differences in what places you fish, the local S-rivers for salmon/Steel is what I want it for.
Thanks in advance.
Buck. :thumb:

[Will Atlas]

Buck,

I've not cast a windcutter recently and I've never seen the sage 8140. I do however fish an airflow delta 7/8 on my CND solstice 6/7/8. The head is a similar length and they are essentially each companies line within that niche. I have been quite pleased with mine. If they fellow you met said the line wasn't "loading" It sounds like the rod is under it's grain window, meaning there simply isnt enough mass to flex the rod deep enough to cast. That being said, a skagit line is actually MUCH different than a windcutter. A skagit line will turn over with almost ZERO D-Loop, while the windcutter and delta really do require a much larger D-Loop. I think that might be the root of the difference in "ease" of casting. Also, to be frank the MKS is probably alot better rod than the lowest rod on the Sage totem pole. No need to be discouraged though. Take your rod to All About the Fly's sunday casting session. 9AM at ben howard, they're there as long as it's not flooding. Let Mike have a cast or give you some tips and I'm sure you'll find your way.

Goodluck,
Will

[Christian Brewer]

According to Rio's recommendations the WC 9/10/11 is the correct line for the FLI 8140. :hmmm:

Are you having problems casting no matter which tip you have on or only with the sink tips and then with or without large weighted flies?

Are you sure that you have the line set up correctly? The WC w/tips is a great line for $$$, but it can be very, very confusing to setup. I have seen plenty of guys using the wrong combination and/or to many sections/tips when using the WC w/tips line as it can be a little confusing. Also you might need to add a Skagit cheater section onto the WC to add some length and weight to it with that 14' rod in order for it to "feel" like a true Skagit head.

I'm no Skagit head casting expert though...especially with that crazy WC set up, but the WC and a Skagit head are completely different lines that can be casted similarly. As Will was mentioning though the WC will require a slightly larger D Loop which would require a just little better timing on your casts. The larger the D Loop the better your timing and casting abilities have to be.

I've never casted either rod, but I am sure that the MKS rod when matched with the proper weighted Skagit head would be a dream to cast (and really just cast itself while you go through the basic casting motions no matter how imperfect they might be).

Personally I just don't think that you have WC set up correctly. That rod should cast it with no problems. You should go to either Aaron's or AATF's weekend morning's spey clinics and have some that is very familiar with the WC setups take a look at it and cast it. Then take the opportunity while you are there to cast other rods, maybe that FLI 8140 doesn't suite your casting abilities or style? :confused:

Good luck
:beer2:
Christian

[Big Tuna]

You're correct that a WC w/ the middle section removed can be used as a Skagit line, but you would have to go up in line weight to use it as one. For example, I have a 9140 that many consider more of a 7 weight. The recommended WC lines are a 7/8/9 or 8/9/10. If I wanted to use a WC line in a Skagit system, I would use the 9/10/11 w/ the middle section removed, which would leave the main belly of the line and the tip.

If you're casting tips w/ that rod, are you using the gray middle section, rather than the floating mid-section? If not, try it.

As for the MKS, I have the 13'6" 7/8 w/ an Airflo Skagit on it. I'm not an exceptional caster, but as I've improved my D loop and stopped the tip high, it's a rocket. I love the rod, but like any rod, it took a little time getting used to it. For $640.00 to your door, it's an awful nice rod.

[Panhandle]

Something is not right indeed. I have the same set up, exept the reel. The only tip that loads correctly is the intermediate. The floater is worthless. I would recommend picking up a new straight floater. I used the outbound a couple months ago and it was night and day compared to the Windcutter floating tip. as for the sinking tips, you need to cut back on the cheater or purchase some cheaters and mess with them until you get one that works for you. In other words, its not that rod, it that line set up. Though is desiganted to work with that rod, it clearly doesn't as you have discovered.

[Kevin Giusti]

Hey Buck. I would say if you liked the feel of the skagit line on the MKS, you may want to just try and find a good skagit line match for your rod. Granted the MKS and your sage are two different rods but you should be able to find a skagit line that works well for you on your rod. Just a thought and good luck in your search for a good match. Kevin

[obiwankanobi]

FRANK,

I would take everyone's advice here and even more so put an emphasis on attending both the AAF and Aaron's weekend casting events. I too fell in love with a Meiser 7/8 and called him the following Mon to inquire more about the rod and his building schedule. He sounded like a really nice guy but the soonest he could roll out a rod would be by mid Jan. A custom Meiser is on my to buy list and I will get one next spring. For the price, you can't beat the craftsmanship, complimented with the sheer performance of his products.

Bob

[Steve Buckner]

my .02

The 8140 is somewhat of a slower action rod, and as such, if you're going to get the power out of that rod, you're going to need a longer stroke to bend the rod to the cork. You may be rushing your cast and/or you may have some other casting faults to examine as well.

All things considered, a faster action rod doesn't require the longer stroke and is easier for people to cast. For the kind of fishing I do, I find the 8140 a little slow, but for summer fishing or light winter fishing, it is a pleasure to cast. I don't think it was ever intended for 200-400 grain heads.

If Aaron is handy, have him analyze your stroke length and/or have him give your rod/line combo a toss and see what he's able to do with it. From there, you'll have a better idea of what the correction might be.

Best of luck!

[FLGator]

Sometimes even with a rod lined "right" it's still...not right, for you. It's really, really frustrating not to mention expensive!

I too have been in this situation and it was with a Meiser MKS 13' 6" 7/8 that stole the show. When you find the "right" combination it's magic. For me, it was worth selling the single most beautiful custom spey rod I've ever seen for the single most beautiful fishing rod I've ever handled.

[Nooksack Mac]

Buck,

Parden my simple-minded suggestion, but could it be that you have the Tip 2 taper installed backwards, i.e., with the heavier end toward the tip? I'd think that that would make the whole line, with whatever tip you have beyond it, feel tip heavy and overloaded.

You didn't say what feels bad about it now. If it all feels too heavy, try casting it without the Tip 2 taper in place. Try it with borrowed lighter and heavier tips.

But better would be to take your outfit to one of the local spey claves. Some expert there could probably diagnose your problem in a few minutes. And if the problem lies in your casting form, he could probably spot that quickly, too.

[Jergens]

ive gone from the windcutters to the skagit system and when i throw my buddies rods with wc's i always just choke up a little on the line (bring the head in a few feet.) for skagit casts. seems to do the trick.

[SPEYBUM]

Buck and the FLI 8140/4
What Buck has run into with his Spey rod is common.
Many people are looking for a feel, which in itself is not bad.
It is the what and the were you feel which is different from the Speycast to the overhead style of casting.
I will not go into it now and will keep that for another thread.

First we have to look at one thing rods cast mass not numbers.
The mass which flexes the rod for the from but to tip or from the min to the max is it’s grain window. Optimum power is usually depends on the caster and the style of casting.

Sage FLI series 14ft rod loads best in window from 525 to 750 grains.

The 8/9/10 Windcutter has a total weight of 585 over 54 ft
The line is made up of a back body, which weighs in at 276 grains, tip 2 weighs in at 172 grains and Tip 1 weighs in at 137 grains.
The 9/10/11 Windcutter has a total weight of 650 over 54 ft
The line is made up of a back body, which weighs in at 307 grains, tip 2 weighs in at 193 grains and Tip 1 weighs in at 150 grains.
The Skagit line for those who use them would be a 600-grain body with a 150-grain tip on it.

Skagit and Woodcutters are like talking apples and oranges.
The Skagit has state weigh without the tip attach so a 600-grain body would take a 150-grain tip. Also most Skagit lines load rods deeper into the butt thus you will feel the rod when it loads off the d-loop and when the anchor is pulled .

The Windcutter has stated weigh with all pieces attached.
So if you remove any part of the Winductter you lower the weight of the line and thus the performance.
By taking the center out of a Winductter to shorten the overall length you take away the performance of the line.
If you wanted use a back belly of Windcutter you would have to go up to 10/11/12 with a 381 body and 163 grain front tip and you come in at 544 with is about as light as you could get.
You have to remember how a Windcutter is designed to dissipate power over its entire length.

I hope this helps
:cool:

[Buck]

Thanks everyone. I think the best thing to do is go see Aaaron or go to a spey clave of some kind.Thanks

.....Aaron, if I can't get to you before turkey feather day, I'll see you after!

:thumb:

Buck

[gbeeman]

I have the Sage 14’ 9wt and use a WC 9/10/11 on it. It works well but it is a heavy rod. I also have a Meiser 12’6” 6/7. I originally went with a Hardy Mach 2 line in 8wt. I didn’t really like the way it loaded the rod and moved on to a WC 7/8/9. I’m pretty happy with this. However, a while back I took a trip on the Deschutes and threw a Skagit head on the rod and it just came alive!

I sent a note to Bob and he recommended a couple different Skagit setups. I picked up one before my latest trip and I’m really pleased. It should be noted, as others have pointed out, that there is quite a difference in how you cast a WC and a Skagit head. It’s not that hard to figure out the Skagit but the same stroke you use for a WC isn’t going to get it done. The other nice thing about the Skagit is that you can use your WC tips on it. This is going to be my go to set up from here on out.

It’s worth knowing that the reason I bought the Meiser in the first place was because I had put it through its paces at Aaron’s. I second everyone’s recommendation about going there and trying different rods and different lines till you find the one that suits your style.

GBeeman