SFR: A different temperament . . .

[mukman]

Since this sub-forum has been instituted, I've noticed something different. There have been several postings on this "Stillwater" forum that, if they had been posted on the main forum, would have been shish-ke-babbed for their naivety, for their presumption to expect free tips, and frankly, for their ignorance of the fly-fishing pursuit.

All I have seen thus far is a very civil give-and-take, genuine answers to honest questions, and great reports from many of our stillwater jewels. Perhaps it's me being naive, but have we reached a higher level of discourse on this sub-forum? Why are people more generous (to name a few: Ceviche, Gary Thompson . . .) and even more poetic (scottflycast's epic "Ran Away to Join the Circus") on the Stillwater forum than the main branch? Is there something statistically significant, or even Darwinian about the smaller number of participants?

Now that I've brought it up, it might be like telling a pitcher he's got a no-hitter going into the eighth: nevermore.

Anyway, thanks to all for the reasoned posts and generous exchange of information. It has emboldened me . . . .

[Eric Tarcha]

i agree, it seems to me the stillwater and saltwater forums tend to be more civil and easy going. My theory is the that the abundance of quality lakes and beaches to fish far outnumber the amount of quality river fishing opportunities these days, and therefore people do not seem to get razzled about sharing info regarding these fisheries. most of the skewers seem to be centered around questions regarding fishing moving water for trout and steelhead.

[Gary Thompson]

I agree with spiritualized50.
Here in the area that I live we just don't have much in the way of moving water (rivers/streams) that are even open for trout fishing.
I don't mind telling someone about the Icicle or the upper Entiat where the big ones are only 8" long, but I'm not telling about the big ones that live in the gates of hell guarded by giant rattlesnakes and other hellish creatures.
I've fished it once and made it back alive never to return.
Nice peaceful stillwater that's for me.

[Go Fish]

Your observations do seem to be true and like Gary I will be happy to share (to a point)
my lake info but I would never give up my honey hole rivers. Can't wait till they open!
David

[Kent Lufkin]

An interesting observation and I think an accurate one as well. May I suggest a possible explanation?

As a dedicated stillwater fisher, it's my opinion that here in the Pacific northwest, home of the anadromous species and those dedicated to pursuing them, skinny water fishers outnumber us lake guys by, I don't know, maybe 50 to 1.

I don't mean to upset anybody here by suggesting this, but in view of the serious decline in anadromous fisheries these days, I'm frankly surprised that more people haven't stopped fishing for them out of respect for their plight. Instead it seems that most folks here are still obsessed with catching only big fish. While I'm convinced that I'll live to see the day when the last native steelhead swims in many of our coastal rivers, the fact that so many fishers seem hell-bent on catching it means there are simply fewer guys pressuring lakes.

As a result, we still enjoy relatively little pressure on lakes compared with the high number of fishers, both fly as well as gear and bait, that descend on coastal rivers. Maybe it's that relative lack of competition that makes us a bit less protective. Or maybe lake fishers are less aggressive, laid back Type B personalities.

Either way, it sure is less pressured back here and I like it too.

K

[Quan]

I blame "A River Runs Through It." :rofl:

Seriously, though. Ever since I started fly fishing, every one of my friends and family are blown away that it could be done in lakes and in the salt. They are even more blown away that they can be caught on flies that are fished subsurface. To think... fish... being caught... UNDERWATER?!!? :eek:

Most of the populace believes fly fishing is dry fly casting, preceded of course, by a painfully elaborate, overly dramatic set of about 30 or so false casts across a river straight at a 10-15 lb trout that is visible only through keen eagle vision acquired through years of casting practice by metronome.

My theory is that since this is the most popular form of fly fishing, it takes on the form of a kind of pop-culture. The masses of people: wannabees, rookies, poachers, idiots and all will jump onto the main fly fishing forum. This makes for tight lips since most any true fisherman, fly or not, would gladly keep people like this away from their favorite fishing spots.

Take for example, a post I replied to in the main forum. The man asked "someone asked me today what the fine is for fishing a stream out of season, since i never have, i didnt know. So who does know what the fine is?".... His friend could be asking this question to figure out whether or not it is worth it to poach. With exposure to people like that, it is no wonder we are reluctant to share information. It is posts like these on the main forum that keep people from sharing their hot spots, tips and stories... For fear that on their next trip they will be bombarded by poachers, beer bottles, barbed hooks, and abnoxious teens. The lack of these kind of people, coupled with a smaller, tighter community - here and in the salt forums - seems to me to be the reason for our culturally positive evolution in our beloved sub forums.

-Q

[Jim Wallace]

Damn, i heard a rumor that someone is making a lake fly fishing movie called "A Lake Sits In The Middle Of It.":rofl:

I've been chasing after steelhead much less often than i used to, but I'm not sure I can nail the reason down to my concern for the wild fish, since I don't catch much anyway. More likely, I blame it on just not getting my act together to be at the right place at the right time. Still, during the two weeks before (and also during) the period when the "O.P. Bash" was happening, I was hearing reports that most of the Forks area rivers were very crowded on weekends and getting really hammered.
I bailed mainly because of the horrible weather and my low expectations of running into any fish. I'm not that dedicated any more, I guess.

Good point made above. I try to not mention the names of my local streams, as they are really sensitive to pressure. But I might take a discreet fly angler along with me to a good spot, and hope that they will reciprocate and share some info with me. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if I took an experienced cutthroat fly angler to one of my sweetwater stretches, and he/she schooled me on my own waters! I'd love it!

I'm getting more into lake fishing, and don't mind sharing info with others. I won't post the names of the lakes I fish in my reports on an open forum (fear of tipping off lurking bait fishermen, etc), but if PM'd by someone whose name I recognize (not a lurker), I will gladly share much of what I know about the lake.

I'm learning as I go, and I really appreciate the sharing of info on techniques to be found here. Thanks to all who have shared!:thumb:

[Quan]

Damn, i heard a rumor that someone is making a lake fly fishing movie called "A Lake Sits In The Middle Of It.":rofl:

HAHA!! That'd be a good movie.

It starts off with a light mist in an orange forest. The camera pans out to reveal that the eerie mist is silicone spray and the forest - an indicator. The movie would start at 8 am and then BOOM! A float tube malfunction for the dramatic climax right after a two hour wait for the chironomid hatch! Will he find his hand pump in time?! And the antagonist? Meet Jack, the bait chucker.

[montnative]

I blame "A River Runs Through It." :rofl:

The lack of these kind of people, coupled with a smaller, tighter community - here and in the salt forums - seems to me to be the reason for our culturally positive evolution in our beloved sub forums.

-Q

iagree:thumb:
Quan you hit on the head with that one.

The Movie you stated is one of the worst things that ever happened to Fly fishing and, the quality of fishing in the state of Montana. IMO.

Sorry but I have needed to say that for a long time. While I know there are a lot more people in the state of Wa. On these other forums I find the small town mentality of kind and useful info, that you don't find in the BIG CITY FORUM. Maybe I am one of those guys that believes that some day the chivalry of sport fishing will come back to this world. But I think that it to is going the way of the Steelhead and Salmon and will be gone before I leave this world.

[ceviche]

Hmm... I guess I'm of the school of thought that the running waters have been overly pressured for too long, to the extent that I'm more comfortable working the lakes within my 1 hour radius of driving. The WDFW has provided the people of this state with a wonderful resource in the many lakes they have stocked. And, certainly, if I bonk a trout to take home, I won't have to worry my conscience over having killed a wild and native fish that's endangered. So, what's the worry there? The worst thing that can happen with my spilling the beans on my favorite lake to a bunch of fly anglers is that a generation of trout will become that much more selective about what they're going to eat. So the bar gets raised a bit. Big deal. That's what tying flies is all about: Every time out, you have to opportunity to crack the new code. It keeps things interesting.

As far as my so-called generousity is concerned, I find that sharing begets sharing, and you rarely lose out in the end. Besides, within the context of stillwater fly fishing, there's so much to learn. You might as well connect with people and swap information and ideas. Sharing also saves on a lot of research time. And, believe you me, I wouldn't be half the (stillwater) fly angler that I am if it hadn't been for this website (yeah, I still suck on moving water...).

In the end, like, what do you call the corner of this website we are participating in? It's called a "forum." One of Webster's definitions for a forum is: "A public meeting place for open discussion." We're here to discuss stillwater fly fishing. That means discussing the what, where, when, why, and how of stillwater fly fishing--as far as I'm concerned. And that's all I've done here. Not too much more. Whatever...

[jbrodie]

I think it is due to the much larger number of viewers on the other forum. Check out the listed number of viewers for each forum. The aggressive tone and confrontations have increased as the general population of this website has increased. Several years ago when this site was smaller there were few negative posts and much like this still water forum. As populations increase so does the number of assholes.

[Kent Lufkin]

I think it is due to the much larger number of viewers on the other forum. Check out the listed number of viewers for each forum. The aggressive tone and confrontations have increased as the general population of this website has increased. Several years ago when this site was smaller there were few negative posts and much like this still water forum. As populations increase so does the number of assholes.

I think you're right about the smaller subset of members frequenting the subforums. But back in 2003 there were some major flame wars even though the number of members was still fairly small. A number of the instigators were eventually purged as the site's reputation for contentious behavior risked giving potential sponsors cold feet. I think the time you're referring to was immediately after the purges when the main board was briefly civil again.

In a way I miss those days as I got to know many of the players and could almost anticipate their position in a thread in advance they were so predictable. (Remember Bob Lawless or that attorney guy who publicly resigned his membership?) Playing cat and mouse was a popular amusement where one could bait a member into a predictable response and then lower the hammer in a reply. But that's a game that could turn ugly really quick. And frequently did.

The main board now is a lot tamer by comparison. There's so many newbie members now with Star Wars-sounding screen names that flaming them just isn't as much fun as it was in the old days.

K

[scottflycst]

Mukman,
Thanks for your kind words.
For whatever the reasons of our positive group dynamic, may it continue!

[barbless]

Rivers make me grumpy. They are always moving around, going up and down and stuff.
It's hard to get lowholed on a lake. I have never been pissed at another angler on a lake.

[Rocket Red]

I don't really come to WFF that much, I fish rivers a lot, but with gear mostly. I do read the forum about once per week. I really enjoy the Stillwaters forum however. I just parrot what has been said above. In lakes the fish aren't going anywhere and they have to eat. The competitive nature of fishing for anadromous fish, is not part of the activity. At least not for me.

[ceviche]

Duh, I forgot... :beathead: Hey, Mukman! Thanks for the compliment. I have this weird knee-jerk response to compliments: I get a little uncomfortable. Still, it's cool that you noticed that people in this corner of the site are a bit more chill about stuff.

BTW, Kent deserves direct recognition, too. I think he's one of the cornerstones of this stillwater scene. He ties very nice flies, too! Richard Olmstead, Jim Wallace, Preston Singletary, Les Johnson, and the list goes on. Lots of knowledge kicking around this forum topic.

[mukman]

Wasn't trolling for thanks from anyone here, but rather acknowledging the great exchange that seems to be happening amongst the folks who post here. If you take a look at my "start" date vs. the number of posts, you'll see that I've been absorbing more than I've been contributing, mainly due to my uncertainty regarding this fly fishing pursuit we're all engaged in. My pursuit is occurring in fits and starts, and it can be pretty intimidating (even in the most impersonal, anonymous method of information exchange) to extend yourself if there's a high probability of getting flamed.

Anyway, gents, thanks for the civility, and for the continuing education. Let's keep it up.

Keith

PS. Ceviche - you've probably forgotten, but you gave me some great advice on Martha a couple of years ago, and it hasn't been forgotten. I look forward to returning the favor on some of my own favorite water. What goes around . . .

[ceviche]

PS. Ceviche - you've probably forgotten, but you gave me some great advice on Martha a couple of years ago, and it hasn't been forgotten. I look forward to returning the favor on some of my own favorite water. What goes around . . .

Ha! If any of your days fishing was as bad as my last time there, you wouldn't be thanking me now. :clown:

If I had my head on straight that day, I would have tried fishing both shallower and deeper. Meh... :beathead:

[mukman]

Come to think of it, while the advice was great, it didn't work worth a damn. I take it all back.

[Jim Wallace]

Duh, I forgot... :beathead: Hey, Mukman! Thanks for the compliment. I have this weird knee-jerk response to compliments: I get a little uncomfortable. Still, it's cool that you noticed that people in this corner of the site are a bit more chill about stuff.

BTW, Kent deserves direct recognition, too. I think he's one of the cornerstones of this stillwater scene. He ties very nice flies, too! Richard Olmstead, Jim Wallace, Preston Singletary, Les Johnson, and the list goes on. Lots of knowledge kicking around this forum topic.

Thanks for the honor, Ceviche, but being the relative noob that I am, i am a bit uncomfortable about my name being included among those highly esteemed and more experienced and savvy anglers. Those other names are the real deal here.
I like to share what I have found out, though!

Here's a bit of experience I garnered yesterday: Check your anchor knot or shackle once in a while to make sure its still up to snuff.
I was setting up to try Chironomid fishing yesterday, dropped my bow anchor and let out some line, then tossed out the stern anchor and tied it off. Next thing I knew, my boat was swinging around..huh??? No bow anchor! I pulled up the rope, and found an open shackle!
Either the pin in the shackle had unscrewed itself, or some practical joker or anchor thief was down there with scuba gear. Didn't see a bubble trail, so I guess it was my own negligence. Was a nice 8 lb mushroom anchor....I might have to snorkel for it later this summer when the lake warms up!

So I either trolled, or anchored and cast while putting up with a little boat swinging. (C&R'd 2 nice little wild cutts and 3 wimpy little stocker 'bows on halloween leech and olive sparkle bugger, both size 10). Finally, the wind died and I was able to drift within casting distance of some risers, so I tried for some dry fly action. No takes. The only bugs I could see hatching were those tiny white gnats, and there were some tiny empty pupae cases or shucks floating around.
I made some good casts to where I thought the trout would rise next. I tried a # 14 Renegade, then went to a #16 Griffith's Gnat, but these were too big, and the trout may have been taking emergers just under the film. I don't know. The rises were not gentle sipping, but a little bit splashy.

[montnative]

Jimbo,

If you put a molly on your shackle you will never have to worry about that again. A molly is a piece of small wire rope (about a 18 in long wrapped within itself, circular) or tie wire that goes though the pin hole and though the shackle itself, it will not come undone unless you want it to.:thumb:

[Kent Lufkin]

. . . BTW, Kent deserves direct recognition, too. I think he's one of the cornerstones of this stillwater scene. He ties very nice flies, too! Richard Olmstead, Jim Wallace, Preston Singletary, Les Johnson, and the list goes on. Lots of knowledge kicking around this forum topic.

Thanks for the kudos Dave - you made me blush to be included with such an accomplished list of fellow anglers.

K

[Jim Wallace]

Yes, please take my name outathere and insert Kent's. Thanks!:o I fish mainly wooly buggers and leech patterns in lakes, although I am determined to learn more technical hatch-matching shizz.