NFR: HB3359 seeks to serialize handgun ammo

[Jon Borcherding]

Little is written of the successful journeys of the 250 million registered vehicles on American roadways but every single accident involving injury or death will receive media attention directly commensurate to the carnage involved.

Tens of thousands of successful flights in and out of American airports receive no attention whatsoever from the all seeing eye of American news media until something goes wrong and then, once again, the concentration, intensity and duration of media coverage is directly commensurate to the carnage involved.

There are approximately 200 million privately owned guns in the United States. Every day the vast majority of them lies quietly in safes and locked drawers and nightstands and they receive little or no attention from the media. While each day privately owned guns are used at least 295 times (by the most conservative estimates) to prevent the commission of a crime. This too receives little or no attention from the media.

However, when a gun is used by a criminal to commit mayhem, the media is all consuming in its lust for every gory detail with every possible nuance of the carnage exposed in living color, sometimes prompting newscasters to warn viewers of the graphic images of wretched human destruction they are about to witness.

It’s not too difficult to understand that some people begin to believe that it’s the guns causing the crime. Nearly all media coverage concerning firearms is tragic and every shred of tragedy is amplified by the ghoulish eye of our news media.
It’s also easy to understand the anti gun sentiment that this coverage has fostered in many Americans. How many people actually know that guns are used to prevent crimes at least 295 times each day?

It would be a beautiful world if there were no violence. We could have all the guns we wanted and enjoy them for shooting sports and never worry about a gun being used violently. Unfortunately humans are violent. If and when we ever cease to be violent, guns will no longer be an issue.

The best way to keep guns off the street is to keep violent criminals in prison.
The best way to keep guns out of the hands of the criminally insane is to confine the insane criminals where they can’t hurt the rest of us.
The best way to overcome your fear of firearms is to familiarize your self with them and the statistics that outline the real risks of lawful gun ownership. The statistics show that guns are far safer than cars.
The best way to stop a morally bankrupt meth fueled recidivist from robbing you at gunpoint and doing whatever he wants to your wife and children is to empty your handgun into his center body mass.

Or maybe you could offer him some cookies and warm milk while you call 911?


JonB

[05tacoma]

My friend said Pam Roach's office told him this bill was DOA.

[jimmysworking]

My friend said Pam Roach's office told him this bill was DOA.

It is for this year. Next year we may see it all over again, that unfortunately is the way things seem to happen here in the People's Republic of Washington.

[Chris Puma]

There are approximately 200 million privately owned guns in the United States. Every day the vast majority of them lies quietly in safes and locked drawers and nightstands and they receive little or no attention from the media. While each day privately owned guns are used at least 295 times (by the most conservative estimates) to prevent the commission of a crime. This too receives little or no attention from the media.
JonB

where are you coming up with your statistics? i could say that each day 1 million people die as a result of guns. it doesn't mean it's true. i just posted in the wff to argue with you. hell, 1 million even makes your 295 seem trivial. argument won. why don't you also post how many people each day are killed through the use of a legal and illegal obtained guns? your arugment would be sound to some degree at least.

just curious, have you ever lived in a real bad neighborhood before? someone who grew up in montana or eastern washington is going to have a much different perspective of gun control than someone who has lived in bad neighborhoods such as carol city, south bronx, or north philly. i mean my g/f grew up in the ghetto. she saw someone walk up to a random person on the street, pull out a gun and blow the someones head off. this is when she was 6 years old. her perspective on gun control is going to be a lot different than yours. you should respect that. the way you're arguing with josh root demonstrates to me at least that you don't care about anyone elses opinion or experiences. you basically just call them a pussy for not "cowboying up".

i'm not arguing against your beliefs. i'm just commenting on how you chose to argue.

honestly, guns in the hands of people kill people. take away the guns people will kill people less efficiently. take away the guns people will still illegally obtain guns. it's pointless. sort of like the "war on drugs". it's pretty crappy that people who use guns in a responsible manner are caught up in this crossfire. american's attitude about firearms might need to change? arguing the way you are isn't going to help win anyone in the middle of the crossfire.

[gt]

folks can replay the NRA talking points all they want, but at the end of the day, the killing continues.

[Adam Taylor]

The best way to stop a morally bankrupt meth fueled recidivist from robbing you at gunpoint and doing whatever he wants to your wife and children is to empty your handgun into his center body mass.

I can't believe I just read that....so in your estimation the only way to combat crime is for everyone to be carrying a weapon?

[Adam Taylor]

Food for thought

In 1992, Americans owned 212 million guns. A gun is made in America every ten seconds and another gun is imported every eleven seconds. Rates of gun ownership in the United States run about twenty times the rate in comparable nations- and so do the rates of homicide. In 1993, more than five times as many victims died from firearms than knives.

[Jon Borcherding]

Chris, Here is where I'm getting my numbers. The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which in 1993, estimated 108,000 Defensive Gun Uses (DGU's) annually. 108,000 divided by 364 = 295 DGU/day.

The NCVS is considered to be a very conservative estimate of DGUs because the NCVS is a non-anonymous national survey conducted by a branch of the federal government, the U.S. Bureau of the Census. Interviewers identify themselves to respondents as federal government employees, even displaying, in face-to-face contacts, an identification card with a badge.

Respondents are told that the interviews are being conducted on behalf of the U.S. Department of Justice, the law enforcement branch of the federal government. As a preliminary to asking questions about crime victimization experiences, interviewers establish the address, telephone number, and full names of all occupants, age twelve and over, in each household they contact. In short, it is made very clear to respondents that they are, in effect, speaking to a law enforcement arm of the federal government, whose employees know exactly who the respondents and their family members are, where they live, and how they can be recontacted."
(Source: Gary, Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1.)

More realistic numbers based on less confrontational statistic gathering methods estimate the annual number of DGUs at well over 1.5 million. This number is based on a survey by Dr. Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist.

Yes, I've lived in some pretty ugly neighborhoods. My solution to the violence was to remove myself from the area. Retreat is always my first choice of responses when I am faced with criminal violence.

I feel that I have presented a series of well founded out arguments. I have seen nothing from you or Josh that refutes anything in my arguments. Instead you choose to complain about the way that the material has been presented.

Honestly gentlemen, I have called NO ONE a "pussy" for not "cowboying up". Those are your words, Chris. It's worth noting that Josh, Chris, and gt are all using the same tactic of trying to smear the opposition because they seem to have nothing solid to bring to the discussion.

gt, the killing will continue even if you and your fellows are successfull in legislating away the RKBA. Violence is an unfortunate part of the human condition. The anti gun lobby has been very successful at making gun ownership nearly impossible for law abiding citizens in Washington DC but they have been a dismal failure at lowering the level of violence in that city. Perhaps it would be a good idea to try to remove the violence at it's source rather than continually attacking the right of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms?

It seems that your "NRA talking points" crack aims to infer that these opinions are not my own. Let me assure you that they are my opinions. I have sourced every cite that is not mine and yes, I am a proud member of the NRA and the GOA. The friends of the NRA will soon be holding their annual banquet at the Tacoma Sportsmens Club and they will be receiving a donation of at least $500 from my wife and myself. It makes me proud to know that some of my money will be used in the NRA's "Eddie the Eagle Program" which teaches children about gun safety and how to avoid accidental injury by firearms.

Thank you all for an interesting discussion and inspiring my further activism for the right to keep and bear arms.

JonB

[Citori]

There are countries that have enacted stringent gun controls, and since doing so, have recorded increases in gun-related crime. That data is apparently not in question. Australia and Great Britain in specific.

Brady bill data shows inverse correlation between gun control and crime - CA and Wash, DC having the highest Brady scores, and yet had the highest crime rates in the nation. The 10 states with lowest violent crime, murder and robbery rates had the poorest Brady scores.

If the hypothesis is that fewer guns or more stringent gun control results in more safety, the facts do not support this conclusion in the areas where that hypothesis has been tested.

[Jon Borcherding]

Food for thought

In 1992, Americans owned 212 million guns. A gun is made in America every ten seconds and another gun is imported every eleven seconds. Rates of gun ownership in the United States run about twenty times the rate in comparable nations- and so do the rates of homicide. In 1993, more than five times as many victims died from firearms than knives.

"Gun death" statistics are frequently cited, in the manner above, to strongly suggest that guns are the cause behind the high violent death rate in the U.S. When quoting violent gun use statistics no mention is made that over half of those violent deaths are suicides. Anti gunners often quote numbers of gun homicides and gun suicides, but fail to show us the total violent death rate of other countries, not just gun deaths. For example, in Japan, where gun ownership is rare, its total suicide rate is higher than our total suicide rate.

Combining gun suicide and homicide deaths creates a sensational comparison with other countries, but only clouds and distorts the many factors actually behind violent death rates. Looking at only gun deaths, it is easy to get the false impression that, because of guns, the United States is the most violent country on earth.

Rather than being the "league leader" in violent death rates, as the sensational and misleading media reports suggest when focusing exclusively on guns, though the U.S. is still high, its violent death rate is not orders of magnitude higher than other countries.

The "gun death" statistic is seldom referenced within its proper perspective and context. Also rare is the statistic that represents the number of lives saved through defensive gun use and that our homicide rate is at a thirty year low and still declining (FBI Uniform Crime Reports).

[Chris Puma]

hey look everyone i can copy and paste random internet facts as well!



"It is not hard for gun-using victims interviewed in the NCVS to withhold information about their use of a gun, especially since they are never directly asked whether they used a gun for self-protection. They are asked only general questions about whether they did anything to protect themselves. In short, respondents are merely give the opportunity to volunteer the information that they have used a gun defensively. All it takes for a respondents to conceal a DGU is to simply refrain from mentioning it, i.e., to leave it out of what may be an otherwise accurate and complete account of the crime incident."

Kleck concludes his criticism of the NCVS saying it "was not designed to estimate how often people resist crime using a gun. It was designed primarily to estimate national victimization levels; it incidentally happens to include a few self-protection questions which include response categories covering resistance with a gun. Its survey instrument has been carefully refined and evaluated over the years to do as good a job as possible in getting people to report illegal things which other people have done to them. This is the exact opposite of the task which faces anyone trying to get good DGU estimates--to get people to admit controversial and possibly illegal things which the Rs themselves have done. Therefore, it is neither surprising, nor a reflection on the survey's designers, to note that the NCVS is singularly ill-suited for estimating the prevalence or incidence of DGU. It is not credible to regard this survey as an acceptable basis for establishing, in even the roughest way, how often Americans use guns for self-protection."

[Jon Borcherding]

The best way to stop a morally bankrupt meth fueled recidivist from robbing you at gunpoint and doing whatever he wants to your wife and children is to empty your handgun into his center body mass.

I can't believe I just read that....so in your estimation the only way to combat crime is for everyone to be carrying a weapon?

Did you read the part about robbing you at gunpoint ?

Hypothetical:
A moraly bankrupt meth fueled recidivist has kicked in your door at 3:00 AM. You awake and find him trying to enter one of your children's bedrooms. He spots you as you exit your bedroom and you are standing in your hallway. He is holding you at gunpoint.
What is your next action?

A rare situation? Yes.
Unheard of? No.
Do similar situations occur on a daily basis? Yes.
Guns are used to prevent crime at least 295 times every day in America.
So now you can make your choice.
What is your next action?

JonB

[Chris Puma]

once again, i'm not even arguing against your point jon. i'm just commenting how YOU chose to argue. it's definitely not a smear campaign. haha. of course, you never used words such as pussy or cowboy up. your tone and mention of 911 and milk, etc... gives me a perspective that's what you are trying to convey. how people perceive you is cruicial when arguing with someone. that's the way i perceive you from your responses. my initial reply in this thread made people to perceive me as a jackass. there ya go...

[gt]

the sky is falling...........the sky is falling..........change the color of the day, quick!


BTW, i have multiple side arms, multiple long barrel weapons, i have been trained to use all of them, thank you very much, i have concealed carry permits in multiple states, and i do not belong to the NRA or any other radical organization that cannot see the light of day.

[Chris Puma]

Did you read the part about robbing you at gunpoint ?

Hypothetical:
A moraly bankrupt meth fueled recidivist has kicked in your door at 3:00 AM. You awake and find him trying to enter one of your children's bedrooms. He spots you as you exit your bedroom and you are standing in your hallway. He is holding you at gunpoint.
What is your next action?

A rare situation? Yes.
Unheard of? No.
Do similar situations occur on a daily basis? Yes.
Guns are used to prevent crime at least 295 times every day in America.
So now you can make your choice.
What is your next action?

JonB

horrible argument. here's a similar situation where 911 is useless.

what happens hypothetically if someone bad pulls a gun on you when you're walking down the street to rob you. he has the intention of killing you and raping your girlfriend.

A rare situation? Yes.
Unheard of? No.
Do similar situations occur on a daily basis? Yes.
Guns are used to prevent crime at least 295 times every day in America.
So now you can make your choice.
What is your next action?


well by your you logic everyone should carry guns to neutralize the situation? therefore the only way to protect yourself is by arming yourself?