ease on gun ban in national parks

[FlyNewbie]

andycarey,

Let me please start off by saying that those guys seem like complete rednecks and they have no excuse for breaking the law.

My only main issue I have with your post is that you clearly get on them about breaking the law, but you are also doing the same thing by carrying a conceled weapon with an expired permit.

[Alex MacDonald]

One wonders if they're not gangbangers from Seattle or Tacoma, learning which end of the thing goes "bang". I also tend to equate morons with firearms to people who haven't grown up around them, don't hunt frequently, and live in the `burbs. Definitely worth keeping up the pressure on the authorities, though. What about placing those infrared cameras in areas that these people are known to frequent. With more data, you might be able to shut them down? I'd surmise they're not local. With these types of people, the mouth often runs faster than the brain, and if they were your neighbors, it shouldn't be difficult to ID them and have the sheriff pay them a visit.

B Jofus G, it's legal to take brown bear (Ursus Arctos) in any state that has a huntable population. The Grizz is a sub-species; Ursus Arctos Horribilis. If you regularly fish in Jellystone or Glacier, it'd be to your advantage (and survival) to know the difference at a glance. Richard's right, though; the four-legged varmints in a national park isn't the reason for the cancellation of the ban. While it's extremely rare to encounter problems in the population centers of a national park, it's becoming more and more common. Seems that as society grows more crowded, it's also becoming less civil, less caring, and more prone to stupidity, greed and violence. And more fearful.

[CovingtonFly]

The national park rangers themselves weren't armed until sometime in the 90's or later I believe.
They armed all the rangers because of the illegals crossing into the parks on the southern border, some of whom were armed and running drugs.
It is interesting to note that we've gone from unarmed Rangers to allowing citizens to be armed.

[Winter run]

Those of us who can legally carry should be able to do so. I think a shooting ban is a good idea so as to prevent shot up shitters and road signs etc. I don't ever want to wax a bear or cougar, but I have almost been pounced by them,and having my gun in hand helped me feel a little better about surviving the situations. And as for banjo players....bring it! All of us have a right to self defense. What difference does some imaginary boundry make?

VERY WELL SAID!!!!!!

For all of us that have CWP (concealed weapons permits) Its not the majority of us that are the problem, So I really don't see what the big deal is about

[Be Jofus G]

Sorry, Be Jofus G, but yes, you can. RCW 9.41.050 and it's entirety refer only to concealed weapons and weapons which are loaded and placed in a vehicle. Below is a memo for training Bellevue PD on the subject.

Your sources are incorrect. There is a seperate provision in the RCW that directly addresses "Open" carry law and it is stated that it is for outdoor recreational activities only. Sorry I can not remember the number but you can find it on the NRA web site and even on this one. It was a topic here about a year ago. That is the only way I knew about it. Having a 45 strapped to hip hiking to a remote lake is ok, Walking Down the street to the 7-11 with a 45 strapped to your hip is illegal.

[Be Jofus G]

I bet you must live in some suburb with plenty of policing or maybe you are sociopath.

I have a neighbor who is a cop but we're not in his jurisdiction. Other than him, I've never seen a cop near my neighborhood. I may be a sociopath, been a while since I've had a psyce eval and steelheading may have finally pushed me over the edge. I will admit that I have a deep hatred for people who unnecessarily infringe on peoples rights. I understand where you are coming from. I see no use for assult weapons myself. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who carried one for 8 years under employment of the United States Government. However, we are talking legally carrying a pistol in a national park, not strolling down your street with a kalashnikov.

[andycarey]

... I will admit that I have a deep hatred for people who unnecessarily infringe on peoples rights...v.

I try hard not to develop deep hatred toward these, so I just have disgust. Paramount rights: life, liberty, pursuit of happiness; and, of course, our indispensable bill of rights.

The quandry comes with responsible vs irresponsible people. Irresponsible people have the same rights as others until they become incarcerated. Unfortunately it is impossible to legislate prudent and responsible behavior, with respect for rights of others. Prudence and responsibility are best taught as family values and enforced thru community norms. It has been my experience that in the last 3 decades we've lost any sense of norms, families have become increasinly dysfunctional, and the only recourse left to enforce civility is lawsuits (lawsuits and civility are, of course, oxymoronic).

There are three past-times (pursuits of happiness) around here that routinely interfere with other peoples' lives, liberties, and pursuits of happiness: burning (from loggin slash to trash to yard waste [even if you have to get it off your neighbor's land]), shooting, and unlicensed juveniles speeding on unmuffled dirt bikes that are unlicensed and uninsured. These three activities seem to be what people around here do when they are not working (after work, unemployed, after school, on weekends). Now, all are to some degree illegal under certain circumstance and certainly public nuisances when done in high-density subdivisions to the detriment of the health, peace, and happiness of the neighbors. There is no way any police department, fire department, prosecutors offices are going to deal with these, no way any population is going to vote itself taxes to fund dealing with these, and appeals by neighbors are met with anger and agression and invariably "It's my right ...".

Oh well, around here it is Sarah Palin's America!

Given these contemporary attitudes, I feel no confidence whatsoever that the process of granting a concealed weapons permit will limit those permits to prudent, responsible people who will respect the rights of others. The requirements for a hunting licence are more stringent and the abuses I see by people with those licenses are astounding. Thus, my chagrin at allowind concealed weapons in parks. If a psyche evaluation was part of the permitting process, I might indeed be a propent of rational, trained, proficient citizens carrying concealed in parks to offset the potential adverse activities of the great irresponsbile, unwashed.

[alpinetrout]

Your sources are incorrect. There is a seperate provision in the RCW that directly addresses "Open" carry law and it is stated that it is for outdoor recreational activities only. Sorry I can not remember the number but you can find it on the NRA web site and even on this one. It was a topic here about a year ago. That is the only way I knew about it. Having a 45 strapped to hip hiking to a remote lake is ok, Walking Down the street to the 7-11 with a 45 strapped to your hip is illegal.

Excerpts from the state law:

RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.

(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

RCW 9.41.060
Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.

(8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

This says that it is illegal to carry concealed without a CPL unless you are subject to one of the exceptions, which includes outdoor recreational activities. There is nothing in the RCW that mentions any restrictions on open carry. Open carry such as your 7-11 example is usually banned under municipal law rather than state, so normally applies within city limits.

[Alex MacDonald]

Right on, Alpine Trout. The law refers to carrying concealed, not open, however, municipalities are forbidden from enacting any law concerning firearms which supersedes state law. That's what the current flap in Seattle is about, since Nickels thinks he can ban firearms on "city property". He's mentioned parks, but city property's also sidewalks, streets, some parking lots, etc. The right of open carry is statewide (RCW 9.41.290). Be Jofus G, the Seattle pd will have something of a problem with it, as usual, but except for stopping you, running the weapon and your id, if you're not in one of the proscribed categories and not doing anything stupid with it, there's really nothing they can legally do about it except hassling you as long as you're following the law. Your ultimate recourse is the legal system, and the law of our state is clear on the subject. Nickels and his toadies haven't shown any reticence in stepping on your civil rights, though, so if you open carry in Seattle, you should be prepared to use that remedy. There's an excellent pamphlet provided by the hunter ed division in Olympia which spells out the law clearly.

[Bob Triggs]

I dont think that people who have taken the trouble to get a weapons permit are making a significant contribution to the violence problem in America, much less in our National Parks. I doubt we will see any appreciable increase in firearms related violent crime, nor poaching of wildlife or shooting vandalism for that matter, in the National Parks because of this law. People ought to be able to legally protect themselves in the National Parks anyway.

[Be Jofus G]

Be Jofus G, the Seattle pd will have something of a problem with it, as usual, but except for stopping you, running the weapon and your id, if you're not in one of the proscribed categories and not doing anything stupid with it, there's really nothing they can legally do about it except hassling you as long as you're following the law. Your ultimate recourse is the legal system, and the law of our state is clear on the subject. Nickels and his toadies haven't shown any reticence in stepping on your civil rights, though, so if you open carry in Seattle, you should be prepared to use that remedy. There's an excellent pamphlet provided by the hunter ed division in Olympia which spells out the law clearly.

Yeah, good catch alpinetrout. The literature I had read over a year ago must have been outdated or just flat out wrong. My fault.

Still I'd be willing to bet that simply getting stopped and having your ID run will not be what happens to someone open carrying in seattle even if it is legal.

[Alex MacDonald]

Given Nickels' desire to have himself declared fuhrer of Seattle, I doubt you'd find anyone willing to take that bet! On the other hand, Seattle would wind up augmenting your retirement fund to a large tune, just as they've done for other folks who's civil rights they violated (WTO riots). You could afford to chase steelhead all over the planet!

[Todd N]

For better or for worse...

The Second Amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Very clear. Why are we still having this discussion?

Waiting for the first post calling this cliche...

Nuff said !

[Roper]

[QUOTE=andycarey;391507]I just read the official final rule (vs. news report). [QUOTE]

Gee, maybe everyone should do that instead of "shooting from the lip"...

One of the issues prior to the ruling is a person with a carry permit could be subject to arrest if they were packing in a park in their state, maybe just driving through. To be consistent with the state regulation the feds agreed to allow according to the state regulation.

Now all of you gun fearful folks can rest easier, or not...it's up to you.

[Ethan G.]

Hmmm, makes sense to me. My concern would be with people having guns in the backcountry, not so much the established areas. I don't fear guns; I fear people making bad choices with guns. There will always be that small minority of the gun-owning public that does stupid things with their firearms.
-Ethan