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Lead

3K views 30 replies 12 participants last post by  xdog 
#1 ·
So has anyone heard more than just rumors that WA state will be lead free next year for all small game/upland bird hunting?
 
#3 ·
See page 20 in your bird pamphlet.

Looks like more to come in 2011. What with the rules on federal lands, as well as more state land as well as for waterfowl I made the decisions several years to shot nothing but non-lead shot for all my hunting. With the enactment of RCW 77.15.400 (mandatory $1,000 and 2 year lost of small game hunting privleges for a lead shot violation) using non-lead makes even more sense.

By the way at the recent regulation meeting there was a group pusing the banning of lead in fishing (if I recall correctly no lead less than 2 oz). They are going to submit ideas to the commission this year and expect to hear more and more about it.

Tight lines
Curt
 
#4 ·
Below is what came forth in a report back in April.

"Under one new policy approved by the commission, WDFW will phase in an expansion of state restrictions on the use of lead shot, which are toxic to birds and other wildlife that ingest it. Noting that toxic shot has been banned in hunting waterfowl since 1991, Brittell said WDFW has been expanding that prohibition to other hunts around the state.

New this year, hunters will be required to use non-toxic shot when hunting upland game birds or mourning doves in three units of the Sunnyside-Snake River Wildlife Area, where ingestion of lead shot by wildlife is of particular concern. In 2011, the non-toxic shot requirement will be expanded to all established WDFW pheasant-release sites."
 
#5 ·
You know, I've been a bird hunter for over a half-century, and while I've heard there are studies out there that support birds dying from ingesting lead, I have yet to see one that's peer-reviewed in any scientific journal. Personally, I believe this is a lot of bullshit. Just that-a "cause" for those idiots who have none to latch onto. In 57 years of bird hunting, the only birds I've ever seen that died from lead poisoning are the ones I've shot. My daughter, the wildlife ecologist, claims that it's true. Show me the studies, otherwise this whole lead hype is like Euell Gibbons' rant about pine trees: "Many parts are edible".
 
#6 ·
The only poster child they have is the condor and Washington says they want to reintroduce the condor to the state.

Long story short, it is all bullshit!

Our only hope is that the east side splits off from the state and becomes it's own state. The west side is hopelessly liberal and wussyfied (how's that for a new word...?)
 
#17 ·
You have obviously never hunted with a good retriever in a public waterfowl area. If you had you would know like myself it is not uncommon to pickup 2-3 lead poisoned birds daily without even trying to find them. On slow hunting days and or post season I have actually solicited the dogs to hunt for cripples and pheasants in obscure areas and you can readily double that number. If you had further ever seen first hand a poisoned bird and or choose to educate yourself enough to understand how a poisoned bird dies you would likely fully support banning lead shot as I do.
Are you attempting to become the poster child for Eastsiders who are RedNeckified?

Good hunting regards,

:)
 
#7 ·
Alex -
There are lots of studies on the impacts on lead. If you are so inclined just try a couple googles and you will find lots of documentation of problems of lead in the environment and imapcts on various birds. Suggested topics
1) Swan and lead shot
2) California condors and lead bullets
3) loons and lead sinkers

If we hope to see hunting to continue as a valid form of recreational with need to keep ourselves informed on this issues and behave in a responsible manner. Keeping our heads in the sand will not make this problems/issues go away - just our sport.

Tight lines
curt
 
#9 ·
Curt, never mind Google, tell me the last time you saw a loon, swan, or a condor while hunting forest grouse?

In my 25-30 years I can say never once....

So someone please tell me why I might have to switch to non-lead shot in the uplands, other than to make some warm and fuzzies feel warmer and fuzzier....:rolleyes:

Here's a challenge, can anyone find a single pellet in the forest that I shot over the last several decades? I highly doubt it, and neither can the loon, swan, or condor...in fact when did the last condor leave Washington...?
 
#10 ·
This business of trying to hang on to our lead shot remains me of some of the debates in the angling world against selective fishing, bait bans , etc.

Roper -
First you don't have to convince me. However there is little doubt that lead in the environment is not a good thing. There has been huge pushes to address leaded gasoline, lead in paint, etc. This has become a very emotional issue for most of the public and unless we have done our collective home work we will have no chance.

Across the landscape when we have lost hunting areas and opportunities it has generally been on emotional appeals by the antis and the public buys it. To fight that we need to use the best science we can and acknowledge the problems and what we can to address bona fide issues.

Connor -
Lead is much more toxic than steel. It becomes a criticial when an animal such as a swan gets a lead pellet in the grit it eats to aid with the grinding of its food in its gizzard. In the grinding process the lead pellet is reduced to the point that it enters the birds blood. As little as single lead pellet is enough to produce a lethal dose even for a bird as large as a swan (some in excess of 30#).

Tight lines
Curt
 
#12 ·
Curt, so are you saying we should just suck it up and go non-tox so our hunting areas aren't closed down? :confused:

So bullshit wins and reality takes a back seat...what a load of crap.:mad:

"Lead in the environment" is vague as hell. Can't any of these bureaucraps make logical boundaries for non-tox based on actual land use/hunting impact? Why shoot for a state wide ban when it's not required?

I know, because it's easy for them...
 
#23 ·
So bullshit wins and reality takes a back seat...what a load of crap.:mad:

Why shoot for a state wide ban when it's not required?

I know, because it's easy for them...
When all you have for a tool is a hammer everything looks like a nail...

If goverment is good at anything it is "curing" everything and everybody with the same carpet bombing.

I am glad I left WA 30 years ago... It would drive me nuts today.
art
 
G
#13 ·
I don't weigh in on much with this forum, but will do so here. I have hunted upland birds and ducks for 40 years. In my opinion, the impact of switching to steel will be greater than lead because it's kill impact is far less. There will be alot more crippled birds that go to waste with steel shot. This is all B.S. Does anyone know if it extends to rifle ammunition?
 
#18 ·
..... In my opinion, the impact of switching to steel will be greater than lead because it's kill impact is far less. There will be alot more crippled birds that go to waste with steel shot. This is all B.S. Does anyone know if it extends to rifle ammunition?
Absolutely not true and has been argued for years unsucessfully when waterfowling went non tox many years ago. Todays non toxic shot loads are far more lethal than any lead shot loads were 20 or even 10 years ago. Any imagined or real "additive" cripple mortality due to imagined inferior loads will never begin to close to the real mortality of lead poisoned birds we will continue to have many many years after a lead ban.
Here is some light reading if you care to educate yourself about what you discuss. I really think the first two links cover the issue nicely. There is of course volumes more reading available on the topic. Of course I say the best thing is to see lead poisoning first hand as I have, I really wish I could bag up the sick poisoned birds I find and send them to you guys and you can watch them die quite slowly.
Oh and I dont believe lead bullets are targeted in future bans nor in my opinion should they be.

http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/birds/pbpoison/index.htm

http://www.nwrc.usgs.gov/wdb/pub/wmh/13_2_6.pdf

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/35/4/766.pdf

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26676--,00.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/a52g6e3gn9b2cgme/

http://www.tws-west.org/transactions/Moore '77.pdf

More good hunting regards,

:)
 
#15 ·
Jon - at least now I know who might buy some extra lead off me! :clown:

The real bullshit are the ammunition companies that charge 2-3 bucks a pop for a nontoxic shell...who do they think we are...flipp'n Annie Oakleys? Nationally we continue to lose hunters every year...the average if my memory serves me correct is roughly 2%. This 2% represents a healthy chunk of state revenue, environmental funding (habitat restoration, etc.), and of course revenue for stores, filling stations, and lodging. I truly believe if they ask hunters to be lead free and don't do anything about the ridiculous ammunition fees that 2% will be 5.

If anyone is interested in 12 ga. #5 Kent Fast Lead let me know...my goof can be your win!
 
#16 ·
I've been watching this coming for years and, BS or no, it's going to be a real part of our hunting life. Even though I sympathize and tend to agree to a point with Roper, I think Smalma is dead-on. Better to get used to the idea. I won't like it, but I'll get used to it (hopefully) and continue to hunt upland birds.
 
#20 ·
You are correct lead shot has been federally banned almost for decades (1991). There remains two huge problems, first is that much lead is still settled into the silt on the bottom of waterways where waterfowl still and will continue to ingest it for decades more to come. The other large problem is that you and I can still legally go out tommorow and hunt upland with lead along most waterways and deposit even more lead into the water. Heck where I hunt which is usually somewhere close by after I am done waterfowling for the morning half or more of the pheasants I shoot end up in the middle of a river, slough or pond of some sort, which is part of the reason I stopped shooting lead for hunting many years ago.
Lead shot poisoning is very real. If you read some of those they studies suggest we continue to lose as many as a estimated 2 million birds per season to lead poisoning, I happen to believe that is a real possibilty.
If you havent shot the new steel loads which are relatively affordable I think you would be surprised at very lethal they are. If you are really worried about lethality or shooting long ranges shoot Bismuth or Hevi-Shot either are superior to any lead loads. I shot both for several years and they both are truly awesome.
The inconvenience of going entirely non-tox are grossly minor expense and effort compared to the very huge benefits waterfowl and other wildlife will reap.

You are also correct about the parting bad shot (redneckified) I apologize for that, but as a westsider you lumped me into being "wussified". I should have thicker skin I have and will be called worse.

Tight lines and smoking barrell regards,

:)
 
#21 ·
Maybe you missed my point on this issue, maybe I wasn't clear enough. Here it is:

A total statewide ban on lead shot is not necessary. Most forest grouse hunting, which is 90 percent of what I do, puts so little shot into the environment it's not funny. And it takes place where no waterfowl feed. So the possibility of lead poisoning is next to zero.

But my fear is the state will ignore good sense and do what makes the warm and fuzzies happy. Because in the end it's all about getting re-elected next term.

As far as the lead now in the environment in waterfowl areas, not much I can do. However I do use bismuth in any posted non-tox area, several of which are in the Okanogan valley around the river. I don't have a problem with sensible designation of no-tox areas. I abide by all hunting and firearms laws...that's how I roll.

BTW, I have a souce for bismuth shot at around 16 to 17 bucks a pound. I load my own to avoid the high cost of commercial ammo. I'm also sitting on several bags of lead in various sizes of shot that I use to reload with. I load as light as I can and still have effective shots that drop birds reliably.

Scary as it might seem we're all reading from the same book, we're just on different pages...
 
#26 ·
.....Maybe you missed my point on this issue, maybe I wasn't clear enough. Here it is:

A total statewide ban on lead shot is not necessary. Most forest grouse hunting, which is 90 percent of what I do, puts so little shot into the environment it's not funny. And it takes place where no waterfowl feed. So the possibility of lead poisoning is next to zero.

But my fear is the state will ignore good sense and do what makes the warm and fuzzies happy. Because in the end it's all about getting re-elected next term......

Scary as it might seem we're all reading from the same book, we're just on different pages...
I guess I did miss your point because what I got and get repeatedly is this is all a Bull Shit agenda brought forth by the warm and fuzzies.

I fully support the idea of a statewide ban and I can assure you I am neither warm nor fuzzy.

I would be inclined to agree forest grouse hunting contributes little if anything to the problem. I do how ever believe grouse hunting represents a small percentage of what what bird hunters actively pursue. Further where do you draw the line if not a statewide ban? How close to waterways can you shoot lead? You say above 90 percent of what you hunt is forest grouse, how about the other ten percent is it okay to shoot lead then? You said in your Poodle post you missed a opportunity to shoot a Pheasant over a creek, is it okay to shoot lead then? What about other hunters do you expect to continue to allow lead use and none of it will end up in waterways? I speculate some upland birds likley succumb to lead poisoning as well even though I have not personally seen or no evidence of this, what if maybe just maybe that is true?

I believe since you dont see a problem it likely isnt there, I am telling you I have seen it
firsthand. As I said earlier I wish I could send you every poisoned cripple I found and you can watch them die or you can wring thier necks knowing that quite possibly a Eagle, Hawk, or other predator will be eating it by the afternoon will the possibilty of being poisoned as well. I eat approximately 300-500 ducks a year how many of those birds might be in the early stages of lead poisoning? To me lead poisoning is very real which is why when I see a thread like this I am willing to to try to enlighten (which is likely a fools errand).

On a personal level I belong and donate to Ducks Unlimited, Delta Waterfowl, Washington Waterfowlers, and Pheasants Unlimited. All these are good organizations working to ensure a hunting future largely by creating and maintaining habitat. It pisses me off to think of how some of the bird production gains they make every year that I in a very small way bought and paid for are negated because we continue to deposit more lead into enviroment. Its like the billions of dollars including some of mine that we spend to save the Salmon and yet we allow indiscriminate commercial netting to continue, why?

Shooting non tox may be painful at first but it is a small price to pay, I chose to shoot non tox at least 15 years ago, partly because of reasons mention, mostly cause I got tired of forgotten lead loads from yesterdays afternoon pheasant hunt found in my pocket on the next mornings waterfowl hunt which made me a accidental poacher.

Here is a simple reason why a statewide and really a federal ban is necessary. Today you and I or anybody else can go down to any waterway and shoot lead as long as we arent hunting waterfowl. Heck it is perfectly legal for me to go down to Skagit Bay and and shoot hundreds of lead rounds into the bay every day of the year if I like.

I wont draw out the arguement any longer I doubt I could ever change your stance on the issue any more than you could change mine. I can hope I given you and others some pause for thought.

Tight lines and happy hunting Gentlemen,

:)
 
#22 ·
Anyone care to explain the difference between lead in shot and lead salts? Say how bioavailable it is in its many forms? How does lead in the form of shot, ground in the gizzard get across the gut wall? What form does it take to get through?

Anyone care to explain why the ammo manufacturers and USFWS are the ones pushing for the lead bans... and why the early results vary so radically between their studies and the rest?

xdog
How do you know the birds you find are suffering from lead poisoning? Why do they only seem to show up sick that way in hunting season? Have you tried to find them in the spring or summer in the same areas? At the mortality rate you describe there is no way there could possibly be a duck left.
art

PS Much of my post-graduate work just may have involved some of these questions...
 
#24 ·
Roper,
You touched on the issue I struggle with and that is cost. If I had a source for bismuth at the price you stated I would take a 50 lbs today. I would love to load my own non-tox shells but I'm not precise or dedicated enough with steel to do it. (high pressure concerns, etc). By chance, can you share your source?

Xdog: I wouldn't hesitate to use steel for all of my hunting if I was presented with unbiased research that clearly demonstrates significant negative impact of lead shot in the environment. I will read your sources and get back to you. As indicated above, the cost of GOOD quality steel loads is higher than lead. I truly believe that there is a quiet, background movement by government to disarm the citizens of this country, tiny piece by tiny piece. Making hunting too expensive and limiting available areas is one part of that movement. I didn't feel this way 10 years ago. I guess I'm older now and see a pattern. By the way I worked as a professional biologist for state and federal governments for 10 years. Please provide me info on these issues if you have it. I appreciate your input.

"Here's your coffee. Be careful it's really hot...oh, hell, mallards..."
 
#28 ·
xdog
Good move skipping the questions I asked if your intent is to remain close-minded.

"...I belong and donate to Ducks Unlimited..."

Would gladly bet I can show receipts for personal donations over the last decade in excess of your annual salary. I strongly believe in their habitat enhancement programs.
art
 
#31 ·
I intended and still intend to address you questions as best I can, I just ran out of time I am trying to get some work done so I can go hunting!

Stand by dammit please~

:)
 
#29 ·
Hap,

You elude to the fact that lead in the form used in hunting does not impact wildlife when ingested correct? Rather it needs to be in a salt form.

Are there not examples of bullets being left inside shooting victims?

Are you saying the banning of lead is not based on sound science? (not that the government would ever do something like that)

Please enlighten me.

Andrew
 
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