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in search of a perfect loop

Spey 
27K views 375 replies 34 participants last post by  Dan Page 
#1 ·
http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/board/showthread.php?82119-Tight-loops

Hi All,

In the previous post about tight loops, there are quite a lot of discussions about how to make a tight loop, there are some good suggestions. However, there are more than one way to get a tight loop, above thread has mentioned one traditional straight rod path principle. Here I want to illustrate and hopefully get some opinions about the second type of tight loop...see videos below... discuss away if you will... but please keep in mind personal attack is not allowed in this board and this thread. Just kindly remind you please respect others if you want to jump in. Thanks,:thumb: Mark

The traditional tight loop: (2:30 sec)


The new concept of tight loop: (0:45 sec)
 
#346 ·
James, in the Chalmer video clip you posted,
In the first cast,
Do you see a lifting of the rear of the loop out of the water in a more vertical orientation via more downward finish on forward stroke?
If not, do you instead see the rod "following over" after a non-stop of a springy rod? A high, hard stop after that much force and rod speed and no release would be tough, wouldn't it? Or am I missing something?
I ask partly because I'm trying to locate the point at which no more casting effort is being applied(when the rod begins to "coast").
I ask because I'm wondering why such a powerful backstroke was followed with such a forceful finishing stroke. Was it necessary to set up the second (the real) cast?

The second cast seems very effective, but I haven't been able to completely get his forward stroke timing,force, and release clearly settled in my mind. Textbook backstroke, though. Reminds me of some photo sequences of Al Buhr. More study required.

I noticed, and perhaps you did as well, that in the first cast, no release of line occurs, while in the second, you'll clearly see him open his bottom hand. This difference between the two casts would have to figure in any attempt at analysis, or using either cast to make a particular point. Comparing the two casts as to force, timing, length, release, and flight path could prove interesting.

Thanks for posting--I've seen it, but never studied it until now.
Greg

Post script: "ET" force= Excessive Torque
 
#368 ·
Hi Dan,

Thanks for the link! It actually reminded me I have to buy Al Buhr's book... always wanted to, and always forgot... order now!
The fulcrum concept indeed is a crucial element in fly casting. But it is so confusing... below is the link of good example of how confusing it could be. But there is one concept to solve the debating (the concept I also used in this thread), if you have time , you might want to read through it:rolleyes:... (you might want to pay more attention to Mr.g' posts) take care! Mark
http://www.sexyloops.co.uk/cgi-bin/theboard_07/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=14;t=14013
 
#347 ·
well, sure Dave. What do you see that's different? Maybe we should compare it to the one you posted. (sound of head scratching)

James, thanks for posting your cast. I, and I'm sure others. remember the civil discussion we were having sveral pages ago.

If I get a chance on the weekend I'll try to get some vid,
 
#348 ·
Hi Pan

I'm glad you feel better, but you must be misunderstanding something.
It's all part of my Unified Field Theory of casting, or UFT. We can compare your vid to James' and compare the stroke, compare those to the above videos, and draw conclusions from there.

oh, wait.
 
#349 ·
Greg,

Look at the water direction flowing around his legs. That clip looks like a casting demo where he used the snake to reposition the line for a single spey. Putting the line upstream'ish so he could then RH-up single with the direction change. Adding a significant degree of difficulty (RH-up single portion of the clip) with a moving starting point which introduces slack.
 
#350 ·
Ref: The Chalmer video

I thought we were discussing "in search of a perfect loop.

The loop formed in the ref. video appears to be approx. 16ft top to bottom ???

My casting concentrates on a high quick stop and lazer tight loops (not that it always presents in that manner).

Regards,
FK
 
#356 ·
Ref: The Chalmer video

I thought we were discussing "in search of a perfect loop.

The loop formed in the ref. video appears to be approx. 16ft top to bottom ???

My casting concentrates on a high quick stop and lazer tight loops (not that it always presents in that manner).

Regards,
FK
Sorry I should have been more clear...I was posting this video partly in response to a PM I recieved from Bruce about using more butt than tip to lift the line, a critique of my personal video. I thought Chalmer's video was a great example of a back cast with butt lift...Bruce is that what you had in mind?

Besides, techincally everything about his cast looked worthy of emulation. Sure he could have tightened up the loop, but that perhaps was not what he was going for.

James.
 
#351 ·
To me this will be the Quote of the year even though I believe it is from 2011.

`An interesting discussion but one which like so many others on forums leaves me sad.

Two opposing trains of thought, one held by people with real skill/talent, huge practical experience based on years of thought and practice and willing to share this with others.

The other a group of theorists who most likely haven't proved themselves in the trenches so to speak.

To use video clips of great casters out of context is of little benefit to the discussion and confusing to those following who know no better.`
 
#369 ·
In case you missed this Mark...........

To me this will be the Quote of the year even though I believe it is from 2011.

`An interesting discussion but one which like so many others on forums leaves me sad.

Two opposing trains of thought, one held by people with real skill/talent, huge practical experience based on years of thought and practice and willing to share this with others.

The other a group of theorists who most likely haven't proved themselves in the trenches so to speak.

To use video clips of great casters out of context is of little benefit to the discussion and confusing to those following who know no better.`
I also noticed you have your long belly lines for sale in the classifieds, that is too bad as I thought that there might be hope of you learning something. No teasing in this remark but the simple fact that longer lines expose casting faults like no other lines and when learned to use properlly lead to better all around casting skills.
 
#358 ·
James there is everything to emulate in the video of James Chalmers casting, there are a couple others from the side which show this technique better, he is one of the best casters and casting coaches in the world, so how could you go wrong.
When you get your Derek Brown dvd it will all be very clear about the shotgun lift.
 
#360 ·
I mentioned in another thread how I wasn't getting the butt out early enough, that vid right there shows the lift I want to perfect. Been giving a lot of thought to lift lately, esp. as concerns overhang. I managed a cast with 15' of overhang on a 15' rod Monday, but I acquired some knowledge to go with the hernia. BTW, only standing knee deep....cheating like a MoFo.
When I said James' vid spoke to casting a sinktip on a longer head, I was seeing the effort and exaggerated lift energy required to free the tip. I experience the same challenge when thigh to waist deep, I don't know how the UK guys can do it with fullsinks. I know with Tay/Tummel style they pull some of the head in and shoot it back into the D loop, which is fascinating/tricky to try. Bending into the butt on the lift is something I'm going to focus on for a bit, thanks for the insight Buce.

now, back to our scheduled flame attacks on the Spaz. Wouldn't want to cramp anyone's style or anything. Have at it, children, Uncle Spaz is here for you.
 
#362 ·
Bob,
"bending into the butt on the lift is something I'm going to focus on for a bit."--Don't do it, lift with legs, man, the legs, or you'll hurt your back!

I mentioned in another thread how I wasn't getting the butt out early enough, that vid right there shows the lift I want to perfect. Been giving a lot of thought to lift lately, esp. as concerns overhang. I managed a cast with 15' of overhang on a 15' rod Monday, but I acquired some knowledge to go with the hernia.
When I said James' vid spoke to casting a sinktip on a longer head, I was seeing the effort and exaggerated lift energy required to free the tip. I experience the same challenge when thigh to waist deep, I don't know how the UK guys can do it with fullsinks. I know with Tay/Tummel style they pull some of the head in and shoot it back into the D loop, which is fascinating/tricky to try. Bending into the butt on the lift is something I'm going to focus on for a bit, thanks for the insight Buce.
 
#366 ·
there's been a lot of fine contributions, but many have been ignored.
there's been some superawesome casters who haven't gotten involved because they didn't want to dirty themselves, and I respect that. 25 pages, yeesh.

There's awesome casters who go all day with a minimum of effort, arrive back at the truck feeling really good; those guys have secrets to share about how this thing really goes. We are talking about the mechanics of a sport, and not all of us are lithe young bucks. Making a fishable cast with a minimum of effort is the essence of both fulcrum casting and Al Buhr's methods, not to mention Ed Ward's and basically every other practical casting technique.

Alexander Grant would be rolling in his grave right now.
 
#374 ·
Mark, stop while you're way behind. You can't save face anymore. You have gone beyond foolishness into the realm of circus spectacle. Any respect waning in page 1 has know turned into embarrassing contempt. Here's an analogy for ya: you are a novice cart racer trying to instruct Indi car racers on how to drive. These modest formula 1 pros humor you by trying to offer advice to this young racing tike. His arrogance only makes him drive faster until he crashes into the wall. The pros shake their head and smile in unfortunate disbelief. The young man learns nothing. He jumps into another go-cart and resumes his foolishness.

Please don't PM me, I have nothing further to discuss with you. Peace
 
#375 ·
Mark, I'm glad you were able to stand back and see how many of your responses were interpreted by others,....which in turn probably helped form the negative responses that came back at you. My input in this thread waned because early on we had a fundamental disagreement about what each of us were seeing in the same video, Ed's forward cast - which you continue to see as rotational to the point of power being applied as the tip travels down, whereas I see follow through and deflection (no power being applied). Then you would say watch again closer, so....I didn't feel we could make any headway. Also, I figured the likes of Bruce, Aaron, Speyforsteel(Greg),..guys with real experience and credentials, are much better equipped to debate the finer points with you than I. Credentials don't mean everything,.....but they mean a hell of a lot.
 
#376 ·
Mark,
I wanted to make certain points regarding my link and video of post #344, but my time has been limited. It's major work to keep current on this thread.
I'm going to bow out gracefully and leave the duscussion to those with more time and expertise than me.
Regards,
Dan
 
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