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NFR: And now wolves in the Teanaway drainage

34K views 192 replies 58 participants last post by  fshflthnkng 
#1 ·
#8 ·
I see a lot of you guys , west side urban dwellers, don't spend too much time out in the wilderness areas in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. The wolves have decimated the many of the herds or elk, deer and especially the moose over there. I fish and hike a lot in the Clearwater in Idaho and Lolo in Montana and NW WY and the elk and deer pops are way down from there because of the re-introduction of the wolves and the banning of hunting of wolves. I talked to Game Officer there last year in the Clearwater, ID by Kelly Creek and he said he found over 80 deer, moose and elk carcasses in the Spring killed by wolves. None were eaten just killed.

Where I used to hunt elk in Montana the same thing.

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/an...blamed-for-decline-of-elk-in-yellowstone-park

The RMEF oppose re-intro of wolves:

http://www.rmef.org/NewsandMedia/Wolves/WolfLitigation.htm
V

Idaho and Montana are thinking on cutting way back on issue of elk and deer moose licenses because of the wolf impact on populations

Why bring them back to Washington?

If you want to bring back the wolf allow hunting seasons to control their numbers

Guess it would very cool to shut down salmon and steelhead seasons in Washington and start a re-intro of smallmouth bass and pike minnows.
Yeh I know smallmouths are not native just like the Canadian Gray wolf.
 
#15 ·
As a dual sport guy, this is not good. I love to fly fish and bow hunt for the same reasons. Both take skill, knowledge, a lot of practice, and knowing your quarry. Wolves were exterminated (or close to it) for a reason....they are too efficient. If humans weren't here it may balance out, but we are. There is simply not enough space or resources for both. This newest pack is really close to my elk camp and now they not only threaten my hunting, but potentially my safety. I love animals, but don't understand re-introducing this one! If some of the above is true about some people that fish are opposed to people that hunt, that is sad to the point of ridiculous.
 
#18 ·
Why does this have to be hunters vs. non argument? I am all for hunting, fishing and predators (i must admit im new to hunting but have enjoyed every min of it so far). There is a balance to everything and i am excited for wolves to be back in the cascades. I love watching elk and deer as they brose and graze but to be honest there are tons of them. Bringing wolves back will make hunting more difficult because it will reduce the ungulate populations and with the return of an apex predator to the ecosystem they will also be much more wary than they currently are. Wolves can really do a number on elk and deer populations and wolf populations tend to mirror the populations size of their prey. In a natural system they will kill many deer and elk which will allow wolf populations to increase until it becomes difficult to find prey and then their populations will crash, then the elk and deer populations will increase in lean wolf years until the wolves increase.... on an on it will go. Thats why it is important for management of both elk, deer and wolves if we want to have relatively stable populations. Anti-wolf crowd: if wolves re-establish themselves here then they will remain here. Dont think we will ever see a purposeful eradication of a top predator ever again so you should just push for management. Pro-Wolf Crowd: Congrats they are back! it’s doubtful any hunting of wolves will happen for years but eventually there will be some kind of management so get over it. Bottom line is wolves, deer, elk, bears, possum, squirrels etc. are awesome. Together they make our national forests mysterious, wild and unknown. Wolves will make hunting more difficult; more hiking, patience, work ect. but if you love hunting and are a true outdoorsmen you will still find your opportunities and sometime in the future you will be able to hunt a whole new species: wolves. This is gonna be a hot topic but in the end everyone is going to have to compromise.

-Connor Parrish
 
#26 ·
Reading this thread has me very concerned. I had no idea that ungulates in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming were nearing extiction due to wolves. Things must have really changed over there since last time I was out that way. I recall seeing elk, deer, AND moose, but never saw any wolves. I'm sure it won't be long til wolves are the only animals left in those states. Pretty soon you won't even be able to drive from Cle Elum to Thorp without hitting a deer! And they eat their prey alive? What kind of animal doesn't have the decency to put a bullet in it's prey before consumption. I know other predators are FAR more humane with their prey. It's also a known fact that wolves ONLY kill the strong and healthy animals, leaving the sick and weak to reproduce further weakening the overall health of herd animals. Wolves in the Teanaway AND grizzlies in the N. Cascades!? We had better all get torches and pitchforks before we lose our spot on the top of the food chain. I'm just sayin...
 
#27 ·
Hey folks, if the wolves are so bad for the rest of the game animals, why is it that we in BC not only have very healthy wolf packs, but great populations of cougar, bear (both black and grizzly) and yet have growing populations of deer (generally becoming a nuisance in the whole southern portion of the province), elk and moose. Having lived with wolves in the neighborhood for most of my life, I am aware of the potential for rare "frenzies" resulting in over-kills, but it is indeed a rare occurrance, not the norm. They have not "decimated" our ungulate populations here, so maybe take a deep breathe and relish in the fact that your ecosystem is showing signs of recovery.
 
#28 ·
We don't own wildlife, and any attempts to sway the argument by saying "wolves are hurting MY elk hunt" or "now MY hunting grounds won't be as good" is damn arrogant and misplaced. We are stewards of the natural resources that exist both visible to us routinely, and more so for the ones that aren't. We have a responsibility to live within and act accordingly in their natural territories - man is the introduced species in the West, not the other way around; and we're far more efficient at killing wildlife than wolves will ever be.

I don't advocate breeding wolves or placing artificial protections on them, only to respectfully provide them range. It's man's nature to kill what they fear, so why would we expect wolf populations to grow out of control? Who's afraid of the Big Bad Wolf - look in the mirror if you are.
 
#31 ·
We don't own wildlife, and any attempts to sway the argument by saying "wolves are hurting MY elk hunt" or "now MY hunting grounds won't be as good" is damn arrogant and misplaced. We are stewards of the natural resources that exist both visible to us routinely, and more so for the ones that aren't. We have a responsibility to live within and act accordingly in their natural territories - man is the introduced species in the West, not the other way around; and we're far more efficient at killing wildlife than wolves will ever be.

I don't advocate breeding wolves or placing artificial protections on them, only to respectfully provide them range. It's man's nature to kill what they fear, so why would we expect wolf populations to grow out of control? Who's afraid of the Big Bad Wolf - look in the mirror if you are.
X2.
 
#32 ·
Are these the same hybrid breed wolves that were reintroduced in montana? From what I undetstad a actual wolf reproduces at a very low rate like 1 or 2 pups that survive a year. And the hybrid test tube wolve have like 8 pups per litter? Ive also heard that actual wolves would most likely target sick or injured animals, were as the hybrid will target the young almost exclusivly. A guy I met who hunts in montana said the state actually has a very tough time convicting you of killing a wolf because you actually killed a geneticly modified dog, not a natual wolf.

I wouldnt bet the bank on that but im curious to see how long it takes before its legal to hunt with AK s and quads.
 
#34 ·
Are these the same hybrid breed wolves that were reintroduced in montana? From what I undetstad a actual wolf reproduces at a very low rate like 1 or 2 pups that survive a year. And the hybrid test tube wolve have like 8 pups per litter? Ive also heard that actual wolves would most likely target sick or injured animals, were as the hybrid will target the young almost exclusivly. A guy I met who hunts in montana said the state actually has a very tough time convicting you of killing a wolf because you actually killed a geneticly modified dog, not a natual wolf.

I wouldnt bet the bank on that but im curious to see how long it takes before its legal to hunt with AK s and quads.
Wow! This is getting better and better.
 
#37 ·
Are these the same hybrid breed wolves that were reintroduced in montana? From what I undetstad a actual wolf reproduces at a very low rate like 1 or 2 pups that survive a year. And the hybrid test tube wolve have like 8 pups per litter? Ive also heard that actual wolves would most likely target sick or injured animals, were as the hybrid will target the young almost exclusivly. A guy I met who hunts in montana said the state actually has a very tough time convicting you of killing a wolf because you actually killed a geneticly modified dog, not a natual wolf.

I wouldnt bet the bank on that but im curious to see how long it takes before its legal to hunt with AK s and quads.
Jumbo -

Quick note and something that I found fascinating - not to hijack the thread.... Dogs and wolves are actually two separate gene pools DNA and fossil records indicate that the early domestic dogs - those that hung around our campfires and garbage dumps when we had lower brows and higher imaginations - are significantly different than wolves. From those early domestic dogs we twisted them into things like little decorative lap dogs.

So while re introduced wolves may have been selected based on a propensity for having large litters, they are not dogs. Nor do I think that they were genetically altered. Also Google domestic Russian silver fox - or something like that. It should lead you to a really insightful experiment regarding domestication that has been ongoing for decades.
 
#139 ·
Quick note and something that I found fascinating - not to hijack the thread.... Dogs and wolves are actually two separate gene pools DNA and fossil records indicate that the early domestic dogs - those that hung around our campfires and garbage dumps when we had lower brows and higher imaginations - are significantly different than wolves. From those early domestic dogs we twisted them into things like little decorative lap dogs.

So while re introduced wolves may have been selected based on a propensity for having large litters, they are not dogs. Nor do I think that they were genetically altered. Also Google domestic Russian silver fox - or something like that. It should lead you to a really insightful experiment regarding domestication that has been ongoing for decades.
Wolves and domestic dogs are from common ancestors. Canines are highly mutatable. Without going into too much detail, SINEC_Cf DNA gets copied into RNA which then gets copied back into DNA then that DNA then sticks itself back into the dog genome. If it lands in the right spot, it's instant noticable mutation. If I am not mistaken canines have the highest rate of mutation of all carnivores. It's impossible to trace the origin of the first domestic dogs from fossil records since a new breed from a single bitch could be made in a single litter if you hit the mutation lottery. IE the first canine pair ever to exist on earth could have had a first litter of completly different looking breeds.

It doesnt matter if the cle-elum wolves are re-introduced or from a different stock that is not native. They will quickly change into their own stock that is suited for that area in a few generations anyway. Look at the difference between a Whidbey Island and Juanita coyotes. They look like two different animals.

Also, forget who the poster was, but wolves will kill in mass and leave uneaten carcases. It's the internal organs that they are after. That is where the most nutrition that they need is found.
 
#41 ·
people seem to have forgotten that the deer elk and moose survived for thousands and thousands of years just fine before we came along and "saved" them from the big bad wolf. I have a lot of experience with wolves at my familys ranch in the BC wilderness, we have a huge wolf population, but the thing is, somehow we still have tons of moose and deer ( elk dont live in our area), true the wolves do take a fair amount of game, but if thats the way mother nature works then so be it. ITS ABSOLUTELY INSANE TO DRIVE A SPECIES TO LOCALIZED EXTINCTION SO WE HAVE MORE ANIMALS TO SHOOT. I love hunting moose, deer, grouse and geese but i also appreciate being a place wild enough to support a fully functioning ecosystem
 
#43 ·
Big difference between the US and Canada. You can shoot wolves in BC and all over Canada and can at least control populations up there. It is encouraged by all the hunt outfitters up there. You cannot shoot wolves in the US. ID introduced a short season but was shut down early last year. They are attempting the same again . It is against the law to kill wolves in WA, OR, WY, WI, MI and Montana.

Ban the hunting of wolves in Canada and see how it works
 
#42 ·
I agree with the Derek and Professori...these wolves are not the product of some obtuse re-introduction act, they have obviously migrated. The fact is that there are plenty of remote, rarely traveled, wilderness areas in Washington that have historically, and should, support populations of Wolves and Grizzly. Although I have never seen a Wolf or a Grizzly I have been backpacking in many areas of WA and found signs (scat, etc.) of both of these creatures. There is no reason that they should be eraticated a second time, especially when their prescence is due to a natural search for new territory and food. I don't feel threatened by these animals, these pictures only confirm what many of us have been 98.3% positive of all along. Grizzlies and Wolves in the N. Cascades, now all we need is for the Californians and E. Coasters to say "to hell with this place, Grizzlies, Wolves, and Traffic! We better take our sprawl elsewhere...hmmm, Idaho? Montana?"
 
#45 ·
id also like to make the point that i do agree with wolf management, if we hunt the prey we should control the predator (humans included) however i have always said that i would like to see wolf managment done by trappers instead of hunters, as far as i know most wolf hunters dont eat the wolf, just skin it and let it hang on the wall or rot in the bush, if it was a trapping thing then we get the same managment and somebody gets to make a living, however i dont think washington is in a position yet where we can start killing wolves. As for the claims of not killing the weak, my experience in canada has been that they kill the easy prey first, when thats gone they go for the healthier game. When it comes to occasional killing sprees, which did happen up where i am about 3 years ago, we had a perfect storm of deep snow with a crust on it, the predators ran on top and the deer broke through, predators are hard wired to kill and not pass up on an easy opportunity, most of us should now this from fishing, so, we presented with an easy opportunity for a kill, whether they need to or not, they will take that oppoturnity to do so, whether it is a trout or wolf, they are hard wired to kill, their survival in leaner times depends on it. In our case the wolves (they had a particularly large pack that winter) went on a killing spree, as did the coyotes, cougars, bobcats lynx, fox, all predators did. But then a curious thing happened, the next few years, the predator population plumeted, and the deer and moose population is currently exploding, at this point the local WANT the predator populations to explode again to to get rid of all these damn deer getting hit my logging trucks and eating my garden. As of yet the predators have not caught up with the herbivores yet, but i assume that in a few years they will and cycle will repeat, that's nature.
 
#46 ·
we tried shooting and trapping wolves during that winter to, many were killed but a few pissed off ranchers wasn't really doing much for predator control, that and everybody focused on the wolves and totally ignored the packs of coyotes killing deer in the hay fields and the and the huge amounts of deer being killed by cougars. When the snow gets deep and and theres a crust on it, coyotes and lynx become big time deer killers.
 
#47 ·
cool, just as with wild anadramous fish, we need to stand back and let the natural balance of things work itself out. wolf hunting is stupid, thanks congress for taking over game management. the only ones who will complain are the ranchers who want to continue overgrazing our land for next to no fee.
 
#49 ·
Should let it go back to the way it was before man came. Lets stop stocking steelhead, salmon and shut down the recreational fishing season permanently for these species. ( The tribes can still net of course). Stop the pike minnow program. Stop the fishing of all endangered cutthroats and rainbows on rivers in Montana, ID WY, WA. Stop guiding because guiding puts undue stress on these endangered fish.

Let it all go back to the natural way

Let's poison and remove all of the of non native invasive species like brown trout, pheasants and chukar too while we're at it.

The natural balance will work things out
 
#48 ·
I've read about a pack in the norther area of Yellowstone that is known to go after Bison for the kill leaving most of the carcass. Dogs are smart and when they pack up its like a gang, that's why they say "pack mentality".
 
#53 ·
It's sort of like the budget vs. national debt issue in DC: Everyone wants government spending to be cut, as long as it's not the program(s) they depend on.

"I like wild steelhead because it's fun to fish for them. But don't let wild wolves into my valley because it will ruin my elk hunting and ranching".
 
#57 ·
Shoot and kill one species so you can better the population of another species that you are going to kill? I'm sick of all the bull trout eating the other fish so people should start killing them. Then we would all have a lot more fish to kill and eat.. Doesn't sound right does it.
 
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