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in search of a perfect loop

Spey 
27K views 375 replies 34 participants last post by  Dan Page 
#1 ·
http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/board/showthread.php?82119-Tight-loops

Hi All,

In the previous post about tight loops, there are quite a lot of discussions about how to make a tight loop, there are some good suggestions. However, there are more than one way to get a tight loop, above thread has mentioned one traditional straight rod path principle. Here I want to illustrate and hopefully get some opinions about the second type of tight loop...see videos below... discuss away if you will... but please keep in mind personal attack is not allowed in this board and this thread. Just kindly remind you please respect others if you want to jump in. Thanks,:thumb: Mark

The traditional tight loop: (2:30 sec)


The new concept of tight loop: (0:45 sec)
 
#225 ·
I caught a black and white steelhead yesterday. The cast wasn't pretty, I mended it onto shape, then the damn fish took on the 4 strip of line. Moral of the story is that it doesn't really matter as long as you get it out there and there are fish present.

Go Sox,
cds
 
#226 ·
I gave it a try with a 1407S for a couple hours this morning, and want to try another rod before I say anything else. I have one rod in mind that I can practically write my name in the air with, might have better luck with that. I'll come back soon.

But like Aaron says, doming the cast sure widens that loop!
 
#227 ·
Mark,
I made an attempt to get up to speed on this disuussion, but quickly saw I hadn't the time to digest it all.
Could you, in a few words, give a quick summary of your theory on straight rod tip travel and tight loops?
What are you saying? I sincerely want to know. Perhaps the thread is now not about straight rod tip travel. I and maybe others would be greatful for a clear and concise picture of where this thread is at.
Dan
 
#230 ·
Hi Dan,

No problem, let me try to summarize this thread one more time.

If you reread my original post #1 on the thread LINK, please closely read the words and the motivation of my intension. First, I acknowledged there is great discussion and suggestions about Straight line rod tip path (SLRTP) acceleration and force to create a tight /perfect loop. Second, I mentioned, there is MORE THAN one way (SLRTP) to create a perfect / tight loop. And I used Ed's video as an example. This alternative forces and acceleration is coming from circular motion and applied the force to OVERHANG and relative SHORT shooting head system. If you ask me what is this alternative force? that other than SLRTP. I will called it Ed's Trebuchet forces (ET). : ) BTW, Who doesn't like ET? The force is cool as hell as soon as you got a glimpse on it!

Briefly to answer your question and summarize this thread, there is NOTHING WRONG with the SLRTP force. They create a traditional nice loop. However, as a modern spey caster, we can't ignore the use of ET force and as you can see some casters already using it (even without noticed it) (see my examples and diagrams in this thread). The most pure form of casting from using ET force that I have ever seen, of course, is Ed ward's angular acceleration and the use of the conservatiion law of angular momentum http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/sports/olympics/olympics-interactives.html#tab1. See link http://speypages.com/speyclave/showthread.php?t=20861&page=12 post#175 for more detail. Ed's cast rotate from the side horizontal plane, and use continuous move and constant load (CM/CL) seamlessly transfer to vertical plane and power through the downward stroke use a single pivot point.


The hybrid form of different forces (SLRTP + ET), could be used as you can see in the Tellis cast, or my the other cast (ET+SLRTP) video LINK. Noted It can be done is any of the hybrid form, but IMO the cast is not as powerful as ET forces all the way though. Especially if you are dealing with the heavy sinktip and heavy fly.
Tellis (0:55 sec) SLRTP + ET downward stroke


My ET circular poke + SLRTP forward stroke


Here the little cip will tell you the reason why the circular motion is so powerful in dealing with the sunken heavey junk. Pay attention to the 2:00 sec. (a string in the glass tube)



Overall, again, there is NOTHING WRONG with SLRTP, as well as ET forces, just recognize it and use it on the right place and right moment.
Cheers, Mark.
 
#228 ·
Mark here is something to think about.........Maximum speed should be kept until the end of the casting movements and the rod should be stopped at the correct power angle. This allows the tip to deflect in the same direction as the intended flight path of the line and form a neat, fast casting loop. If the rod is pushed or stopped too low, the deflection of the rod tip will bring the lower leg of the loop with it resulting in loss of directional power and speed
 
#229 ·
Bruce, your recent text to Mark (partial) below:

"Maximum speed should be kept until the end of the casting movements and the rod should be stopped at the correct power angle. This allows the tip to deflect" (did you mean 'unload'?) "in the same direction as the intended flight path of the line and form a neat, fast casting loop."

Well said, friend.

I'm coming to the conclusion that Mark percieves this exact thing happening by forming a slightly above horizontal rod finish with a sharply upswept heavily-loaded tip at the near-finishing point of his stroke. Whether reality matches his perception, whether it adds energy to an otherwise well executed cast, well...I think I'll just wait for the "movie" to come out.
Greg
 
#231 ·
Mark,
Thank you for the fill in and I am going to work my way through your references. I have to say it's hard for me to see how any force vector applied in any direction other than in the direct line you intend the flyline to travel can do anything other than diminish the energy of the cast. This ET force idea is intriguing but doesn't sit right with me at this moment. I will get back later.
Thanks,
Dan
 
#233 ·
Welp, I tried these concepts out with several rod/line combinations, and the only deflection I managed to get was with a late release on a heavy skagit head that had a touch too much overhang. Giant teardrop-shaped collision loop most of the time, robbed distance/speed from the cast, and I got all that in exchange for working twice as hard.
I'm not a fan yet, Mark.

I think the value in this thread might be found in explaining how overhang may assist the cast (in moderation) once that tack is taken; but that the claim of tightening the loop or increasing speed/distance of the cast is an overstatement.
 
#234 ·
Hi Greg,

Just have a quick look over the speypages last night and it seems you guys are having a lot of fun over there... : ) and it seems some of you get caught up on the subject of releasing power. Because I believe you are a good dude, so I will like to point you to the right direction again, please read my posts in this thread, #82, #96 and #104 (and please give my friend Fred a break!!). To me, the answer has already stated there clearly. Briefly, the energy is released on the point C in the original diagram.

My statement and explanation about this motion is adding force to the flyline, below is my explanation.

After the A point, the rod tip continue to drive downward with fast acceleration.The rod is putting tension on the overhang that cuased the overhang to rotate and pulling the Skagit head to the downward motion. (noted, the energy has NOT been released at this point yet, let's the reason I call it "pulling downward") This force can be calculated as the centrifugal force centered on the pivot point located at the front portion of the rod (depends on the rod action, on soft rod, the pivot would be located on the lower part of the rod, on the fast rod, the pivot point would be located more close to the rod tip ), this rotation force caused the rolling motion of the Skagit head .

I sincerely suggest you go back to read my responses to you...
Hope this explain your puzzles.

BTW, I have finished all of your questions about 4 days ago, some of them are sitting in my computer (not published yet), but I assume you probably already lost the interests in knowing them since you did not respond to my latest answers to you (not sure if you like it or not), so I will just save the trouble to post them here.
take care, Mark
 
#235 ·
Hi Speyspaz,

I am sorry to hear it doesn't work out for you. But please don't give yourself a hard time, regarding the fact that you only head out twice and maybe couple hours of practicing. All due respect, it will require longer time to get a good handle on it than what you think.

Not sure how you rank your skill, so far, all I have seen people doing this ET forces are instructors, if not the most skillful casters. So it should take a while to get use to the feel and the timing, of course the cast I mentioned here is just an alternative ET power application, you can fish the SLRIP all your life. I can be sure of that.

In addition,
For the poll you posted on the speypages is quite interesting, but due to the lack of time in my recent schedule. I only can view it occasionally. The results, to date, are very interesting, but not surprising to me at all. About roughly 16% percent of people (combined category 4 and 5) might has experienced this ET power application, and say, probably only half of them is doing the way I have described here. That' is about 8%. So to me, this is another evidence to show you, you can not make the cast happen is totally normal and understandable... instead, who can make the cast "happen" is really the weird 10% guys.

Just a side note, the reason I decided to post this thread here in the WFF is not because this is a local forum, quite opposite... there are many excellent international casters and local casters (I know) frequently visit this forum (and still posting) and I will assume the poll will be pretty similar to the speypages, if not higher. And of course,being a local guy and have learned so much from this website, it's always time to give back here... so please don't see WFF as a local forum and talk "differently" when you go over to the speypages.

In addition, if you and Greg are really into casting mechanics (as I do), there is another wonderful european based website called sexyloop.com. There are more THCI and engineers there, I am a member there too. But just let you know, even the highly specialized niche in casting mechanics in sexyloop. It take 31 pages for them to figure out the fulcrum is not necessary located on the rod itself. Instead, the ICR (Instant Center of Rotation) (which I also used in my diagrams here in this thread to indicate the power) are more appropriate in analyzing the casting mechanics. And after the length discussion, probably still only "handful" of people understand the concept. What is my intension to say all of this?? There is no local or international division difference regarding to internet forums. Everything is international, and you need to choose the words carefully, not like talking in your living room when you are dealing with "local" forum. Of course this is just my suggestions to you and my personal opinions.

Regards,

Mark
 
#236 ·
Mark,
I sense a certain unpleasant emotional undercurrent beginning to arise within your comments. That's regrettable, but not unexpected.

Why would you assume every discussion involving fly casting mechanics on every site is about you or your methods? My exchange on another site with your "my friend Fred", involved a very important mis-statement of fact that he posted, but alas, was unwilling, or perhaps, unable to correct on his own. I didn't attempt to involve you nor invite your participation in that dialog, so I'm uncertain as to why you would insert yourself into that conversation in such an obtuse and surreptitious fashion. Since you did, perhaps you should read his mis-statements for yourself, then consider correcting him, since he is your "friend". An individual as well-informed as yourself should have no trouble locating them. Then, having been properly informed, he can re-post corrected statements.

By all means, continue to publish answers to my questions, I will read them all carefully. You would be mistaken to believe that I am in complete opposition to your position. You would also be mistaken to assume I have lost interest "in them", as you put it.

You may have reached a conclusion on this issue, given your immense investment of effort and risk to credibility. I have not reached a conclusion, and I have no such chip in the game, so to speak. I am interested solely in the truth of the matter, and would encourage you to stick to that theme.
Regards,
Greg Holt
 
#237 ·
Greg,

Fair enough, we will continue the communication, without time frame limit.

I am glad you finally sense I have an ongoing "unpleasant" feeling toward you and some other people here. I am here for sharing, but most importantly for sharing information with friends AND people who has positive energy. For people with negative attitudes, the negatives also bounced back.

Since in the moment I "sensed" your intention of posting in this thread is more than debating/ or knowing the truth... see post # 200 with less compassion and #201 , I switched to different mode to your responses. Sorry, I am just one of the many normal souls...

Answers from me will still have to wait to be delivered ... but not anytime soon in the current "mode". Just to be honest with you. I also have no interest in joining discussion in the thread in speypages FYI.

(maybe it will be better for you to figure it out yourself, since you are a very fast learner and I can sense your out going positive energy, at least in the speypages.com)

Sincerely,

Mark
 
#238 ·
Netiquette's different there Mark...every forum is different. It's fun to let my Jersey out once in awhile. Especially on passive-aggressive hotairbags.

The thread on Spey pages is fun, participative, and seems to be going places without being overcontrolled, leaving anyone out, or playing holier than thou. A refreshing change of pace. Sorry you don't have time in your busy schedule to post, but I'm sure it'll go along fine without you.

In that spirit, I still want to see some vid. Of you. Busting out the big ones.
I'll just sit here, looking back up your nose at you, waiting for you to deliver. We reach that point often with you, don't we?
 
#240 ·
Netiquette's different there Mark...every forum is different. It's fun to let my Jersey out once in awhile. Especially on passive agressive hotairbags.

The thread on Spey pages is fun, participative, and seems to be going places without being overcontrolled, leaving anyone out, or playing holier than thou. A refreshing change of pace. Sorry you don't have time in your busy schedule to post, but I'm sure it'll go along fine without you.
Ha .... I am sure the ongoing thread over speypages is more peaceful.... see who make a big changes regarding to posting attitudes... it would be fun to put those two threads together side by side... sorry, I just can't resist... but you guys are doing good. Definitely doing much better without me...

Sincerely,

Mark
 
#239 ·
Mark, sorry but I fail to see the continous roll on the forward cast in your video but I do notice one thing that is pretty important in this converstation, I will let you figure it out and also how much overhang is essential to the rolling trebuchet cast? It does not appear you have more than a couple feet at most. Do you think that this continous roll in the manner that you did the cast in the video would work for a longer floating line?
 
#321 ·
Hey Bruce,

Sorry, I really want to end this thread, so I no longer take new questions. There are just too much unwanted energy in this thread. I think for some of us, it is a good time to call it end for good. Maybe you can start another thread,and if I find my time, I will participate. :thumb:

Take care, brother
sincerely,

Mark
Mark, looks like you are back in the conversation so thought this was relavent, it also shows up in the pic of Ed casting where you pointed out where his fly is.

ET= Everyone Thinks........(they are an expert on the internet)
 
#241 ·
Hey Bruce,

Sorry, I really want to end this thread, so I no longer take new questions. There are just too much unwanted energy in this thread. I think for some of us, it is a good time to call it end for good. Maybe you can start another thread,and if I find my time, I will participate. :thumb:

Take care, brother
sincerely,

Mark
 
#243 ·
Damn, I thought we were going to hit the magic 20 mark. Mark.

Mark, I hope you use the interim time to make some video of you, in a real fishing situation, actually demonstrating this "revolutionary" cast, because what you've shown so far is not revolutionary. It's overhang, dude. With short little heads.

I appreciate the study you've put into casting mechanics, very interesting stuff, and educational--no hard feelings-- but buddy, you have to deliver the goods sooner or later if you want to be the next "speythority"
 
#244 ·
Well then, we don't need Mark to continue this fine conversation "In Search of the Perfect Loop". Let just change the scope of the conversation to mid to long bellies (60'+). I myself have just recently moved into this catagory from the Short belly side (I use 38 - 55' heads typically). I've built a couple of lines, one 62' the other 65', that I've been working with. And yes, I do plan to use them this winter. Practiced today for a few hours with my 65' head with 15' 125grn tips, floater and sinkers, so let me get it kicked off with the first question:

Had some pretty good distance today, but was working on my loops and line speed...At times had some really nice loops but others ended in collision or just died. What are some fundamentals I should be aware of...the ingredients of a nice tight loop cast?

Rivers have been really rising...when they get to where I can safely wade I'll get some video up.

Thanks James
 
#245 ·
oh, what the hell. Let's go 20.
James, how far back did you cut the tip? .060 for heavier tips, .050 for polys. My preference only. A lot has to do with the line you used as a base. I've used Grandspey, Midspey, and Powerspey Rio lines as a base, and they all carry tips, but all ask for a different stroke. Their lengths roughly correspond to the lengths you've mentioned. All seem to demand a highish stop but want me to drop the tip after release. You can cut back a DT line but it's a bitch. Really, a bitch.
You're not likely to get dryline comparable loops when fishing tips off a longer belly, I set my expectations a bit lower in terms of both the loop height (a little wider is better) and distance (due to shorter flight time + carrying the tip and less efficient turnover) but still major potential for sweetness. Again, only what I've experienced. There are guys who can fling a tip on a longbelly like it's not there, but those guys aren't me...

One of the best lines for fishing tips is the CND GPS, they're built for it. Also, the Nextcast Winter Authority lines are bombers!
Depending on what your base belly is, I might advise cutting the sinktip back to 12' if it's like, say, an 8 wt DC rio tip. Another option to consider might be a 12-14' poly.

You may find, as I did, that a little more altitude and oomph on the sweep will be required to get the anchor far enough up to set right. However, hitting the forward stroke too hard will certainly produce collision loops, a more vertical forward stroke will serve well there. On the forward stroke you have to trust the line's mass and not force it, otherwise you'll wedge it and really screw the pooch.
 
#246 ·
I can't find my notes...garage is packed trying to sell the house...but this is what I remember, I bought a used Midspey cut the rear taper and running line loose, cut back the tip about 16' and use 125grn sink tips or a loop on a floating tip made form an old delta line. The floating tip feels a little light, weighs in around 80grns. It's my Poor Mans' Winter Authority.

That's pretty much my assessment... too much juice too soon on the forward stroke. About everytime I talked myself through the forward stroke, after a nice pause as I raised the rod (Vertical) to the firing position, to feel the load and accelerate to a stop, the loops were awesome and the line zipped out with authority. I was pretty impressed with the sink tips, at times the tip did fail to roll out but that was just me. I was bombing out around 115-120' pretty consistantly with s3/s4 tip and a #2 skunk. Loops where my issue, some (30%) loops would just be wide open and ugly...others (30%) tailed or collided. I wish I got some video today, I actually think my left hand casting was better than my right today.

By the way I'm using: 14'8" Guideline Act 4 10/11. Line Modified Midspey (785grns).
Side note: Was thinking about building a 10' cheater to get the head length to 75'....should I build with a taper?
 
#252 ·
The Grandspey and Midspey I have are 10/11s, cut back pretty hard. I was last fooling with them last spring last time I modified them, I'd have to dig to find the specs, but I was using them on my 15' 8/9 Deer Creek and they seemed in the right weight zone. I can't remember which line I ended up settling on, will have to work it out again later this winter.
The Powerspey has been cut yet again to a stub, basically has become a 7/8 skandit head, and still doesn't cast well....powerspeys....
If it was my cheater, I'd try to find a hank of line with a taper in it, but I'd be paying close attention to matching diameters, maybe even consider using Int line! hmm.
You're welcome to try any of my lines too, 'course that's a sad little offer compared to Bruce's Carrons.
 
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