Washington Fly Fishing Forum banner

in search of a perfect loop

Spey 
27K views 375 replies 34 participants last post by  Dan Page 
#1 ·
http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/board/showthread.php?82119-Tight-loops

Hi All,

In the previous post about tight loops, there are quite a lot of discussions about how to make a tight loop, there are some good suggestions. However, there are more than one way to get a tight loop, above thread has mentioned one traditional straight rod path principle. Here I want to illustrate and hopefully get some opinions about the second type of tight loop...see videos below... discuss away if you will... but please keep in mind personal attack is not allowed in this board and this thread. Just kindly remind you please respect others if you want to jump in. Thanks,:thumb: Mark

The traditional tight loop: (2:30 sec)


The new concept of tight loop: (0:45 sec)
 
#256 ·
Brady
I would just loop it until you get the desired effect then needle splice it to the head.
Make sure of you splice to many heads have gone to the fishes from a slipped slice.
Keep us posted as you your results.
 
#264 ·
My experience withh sinktips on long lines is limited... what's the biggest/ longest sinktip most of those lines can handle? I've gone no longer than a dozen feet, 120ish grains. Is there an upper limit?
T-8 is great as a sinking leader, as long as you have the diameter to turn it and a less than giant fly.
 
#265 ·
I have an 8/9 Accelerator that I cut back 15ft. (at the built-in "hinge"). It handles a type 8 8wt. 15ft. rio tip, and a 3" leech. I hit about 75-80' at my best, but I'm barely a novice with the long line. The Accelerator is only one I've ever cast. I wouldn't be surprised if someone that knew what they were doing could get another 40ft., even with the tip.
 
#270 ·
Here again depends on which school you came out of.
When I started we only had Double Taper: Later on we added hybrid tips, and shortened them up and made shooting heads out of them.

Long-belly depends on how well you mind your girlfriend or wife, I other words how slow can you go and not get stuck.

As for tips you can move any tip with any line as long as the parent line where you attach the tip is has more weight than the tip. I for on go up two line weights for my style of casting.
Early XLT’s were cut back 27 ft, Early Carron’s were cut back 20 ft or so to cast a 156 grain tip.
Now I have done away this foolishness and gone to full sinking shooting heads and have more fun.
The longest full sinking head I use is just under 45 ft with out the tip or poly leader ( note the tip is 126 grains for these heads)
I hope this helps.
:cool:
 
#274 ·
ho, hey, James, not an insult intended, hope am reading this wrong...please PM me if an issue.

I'm grateful that everybody's weighing in on this, not a topic often discussed in this forum. I'm split half and half with fullsinks, I don't like them on shorter rods because I find them to be a pain in the ass to get out, but on longish rods with some strength in the middle they're butter and swim a fly so beautifully.

I think Kerry and SpeyBum have made some girthy statements worth thinking about...there's a whole winter ahead and the whole strip-strip-strip idea is giving me hives.
 
#276 ·
Oh, cool. was worried there for a minute. The DDC can be a cruel bitch, but once you see her cut the wind she owns you, am I right?
I'm interested in some of the new concept american Int skagits, am contemplating a SA Int for my new skagit rod.

James, this float/Int/tip experiment promises to be a total disater, just the kind of crazy shit I love. Please let us all know how it turns out, and if a total disaster, all the more fun! Include disaster vid!
 
#277 ·
I'm about 90% sure it'll cast...how pretty? we'll have to wait and see. And of course I'll get some video if I make it out.

As far as the DDC...a real pleasure to fish, gets deeper than a skagit with less weight and stays in the zone longer. I'd think a intermediate skagit is a bigger disaster in the making than my "Ultra DDC". The thought of pulling such a heavy bulky head from the water and some T-anything, sounds like a day of sustained anchor casts after a roll-up. The DDC is well designed to shed water and extract with ease.
 
#278 ·
probably fishing mine tomorrow, but instead of the standard DDC tips I'm using a slightly cutback Rio Type III, lightly weighted fly, a slow slow straight swing...shh! we're revealing state secrets here.
Armageddon! Armageddon!
 
#283 ·
I have several rods that are good for fullsink heads, but the one I'm specifically thinking about here is my 1407 Meiser S. I have fullsink heads for my 1306 Hybrid S but they're a pain if I'm standing deep, cast beautifully though...I recently snagged a 3 piece LeCie 13'7" 9/10 3 pc, and like Dan said above, that one is effortless.

Question for Gordon- In your experience, what about the UK rods make them better at getting sinkheads out? I would jestingly say "better casters who do it all the time", but the rods have to have certain characteristics. I've picked up on a slightly stiffer tip and strong middle, like a Greased Line GLX might have, but the unique DTX action might bear some explaining.

I will pray for your liver. A toast to you and yours!
Bob
 
#280 ·
With regard to the full sink heads, pulling them out is easy with the right rod. For me the Swedish folks have figured this out. Those Guideline rods, and probably any of those other Scandi rods as well as some UK rods, and certain US rods can do it.
For a short rod set-up I've loved the 12'6" LPXe 9/10 for 420-460 gr. heads. Been using a DDC/ and full sink PT's for many years now and am satisfied. It has been my "go to" for small rivers for winter fishing.
As we know, there are many ways to get the fly to perform the way we want. Whatever system you are using, there is probably a way to make it work.
We just have to figure it out at the time.
Cheers.
Dan
 
#281 ·
Holy Smoke this thread has changed around quite a bit.

Most guys here in the UK still use a full sunk line for early season fishing, sink tips coming secondary, will not go into the reasons why as i have to go to work in a little while, so designing a rod in the UK that can't lift a long line off the bottom of the river would be pointless.

Happy Hogmanay from the Highlands :beer1: ........... i can't reply over the next day or so as its party time here............ and i most likely will be ill with all the drinking that goes on here, nowhere takes in the new year like the Highlands of Scotland....... i have the liver to prove it. :D

Cheers
Gordon Macleod
DTX Pro Staff.
 
#284 ·
Perfect loop, hell, I'm still searching for a consistent loop that;

1.) doesn't make me look like a total spaz
2.) doesn't smack me in the back of the head or poke holes in my wading jacket
3.) gets the line where it needs to be to present the fly

... from where I am currently in spey casting capability, "the perfect loop" is a moonshot for me :D

If you want to review the non-perfect loop, please refer to my YouTube post a couple months ago :eek:

I did get lots of great feedback from many on this forum that critiqued the cast -- still working at it!
 
#285 ·
Mark, oh Mark,
Thank you for completing the resposnses as promised.
If you go back and re-read your own postings, (as I have done several times) from the very beginning of this thread, you will notice:

1) a gradual shifting of your insistence from downward forces towards a combination of forward movement with downward late emphasis. Nothing wrong with that latter motion-- I never said there was (you wrongly assumed I did). Maybe that's the way threads evolve, but I'm pretty sure its not the scientific method. I suggest stating a thesis clearly, narrowly defined, with a minimum number of variables, well defined terms, and sharp focus thereafter.

2) a tendency to utilize what I will call "selective viewing" (of presented video "evidence"), similar to the selective hearing (balance of coment deleted prior to posting)

3) Deleted, with apologies to all, Mark especially. Knee jerk reaction. Not wise.

4) no evidence that your interpretation of Center Mass as applied here is getting any traction. I couldn't help but notice the head length in your diagrams is only slightly longer than the rod; i.e. unrealistic. Since the center mass is not instanly present at the moment of infuence, only the front portion of a "ass heavy" head will be affected by the rotation forces you describe, and it will likely fail to function at all on long heads/lines.

5) you never answered the question as to why a tennis ball, but not a fly line could be directed into multiple paths from an identical set-up. It would seem critically important to resolve such apparent inconsistencies, yet you somehow breeze right by them. Hint: it has to do with the tennis ball being a compact solid object as opposed to a long flexible one, presenting itself in the time and position of release quite differently, not to mention their behavioral differences in relation to a short tether such as overhang.

6) very early responses by others sugessted the anchor played a vital role in the success of this rotational movement, perhaps you missed that one (Idid initially)--too bad.

7) my citing of action/reaction principles as a primary factor in the rising rear portion of the front loop recieved the same subtle dismissal, much like your failure to explain the hump in the lower leg of the D loop in Tellis' video. (Al Buhr has excellent text and photos depicting this in his book).

8) your insistence on a "fixed pivot", "pulling the rod down rotates the overhang", and "dragging the rod tip down is the most effective way to move the CM forward" are all still unproven at this point. (IMO).

I have verified to my personal satisfaction in my "lawn experiment" that excessive downward force negatively effects forward travel. Perhaps you could take the time to verify this for yourself.

In summation, though it was an interesting discussion, and I learned some things I hadn't previously known, it was less rewarding than I'd hoped-- perhaps you feel that way too, albeit for different reasons. If, in the future, you refine the nut of your argument into something genuinly novel, please share it. You previously hinted that it was the description, not the technique that was new, that may be as good as it gets.

I posted (on the other site), a very brief description of the actual effects of the motion as I see them (without referring to you).You may wish to read it, if only for clarification of my opinion on this topic, since I had never previously offered it. You'll be able to locate it easily, having perused the thread previously.

I'm hoping to leave the table peaceably here, hoping you can do the same. If you think you'be been "punched" again here, so be it. I can't control your response, but will certainly be held responsible for mine. If we interact in the future, it will be to our mutual benefit to establish and follow certain groundrules...

With a polite, firm handshake, and a diffent perception,
Greg
 
#286 ·
Greg, in reference to point #3...give us "other participants" more credit, as a self proclaimed victory has zero merit with most. Mark's been pounding a square peg in a round hole for quite awhile now and to mix metaphors in harmony with this thread, he's found it wise to put down the "shovel".

This has been a great thread and exercise in validating the fundamentals and the importance of them.
 
#289 ·
Greg, in reference to point #3...give us "other participants" more credit,
This has been a great thread and exercise in validating the fundamentals and the importance of them.
James, Thanks for summarizing Greg's points for me! Whew... I really got lost at some point... I totally agree with you! This is such a productive and wonderful thread!!

At least when comparing to "the sister thread"... well... I just checking it again over there this morning, it seems there have a little progressive... Maybe too many Greenish "Butt"s buzzing in that thread?! and try to figure out how ET force work? :rofl: Ha...at least it is a really entertaining thread over there...I am honored. Happy New Year!! My friends! : )

Mark
 
#287 ·
Hey freestoner, nothing wrong with looking like a total spaz...:thumb:
I didn't start making casting progress until I became OK with sucking at it...strange alchemy of the mind. Humility took me out of frustration and into fun.
One of the reasons I'm so adamant about SLP is that mastery of the basics is the #1 challenge for the huge majority of casters. It progresses to mastering the basics with a variety of lines and styles, no cheating allowed there. Otherwise, we can draw wrong conclusions and go off into dead ends, then wonder why it happened. As shorter heads have become the norm, shorter every year, we risk losing touch with the foundations of good casting.
It's essential, IMHO, to be able to control a fully loaded rod with heads of substantial length, IF the quest is for top casting form. But for many guys that's not the quest. I just would never try to set myself up as an "expert" unless I can prove, on the spot, that I can walk the talk. Because there's always guys like me around, ready to call bullshit...and that's as it should be. Again, IMHO.

It appears we have achieved the magic twenty pages in this thread.
 
#302 ·
Bruce,
What great good fortune! By pure luck and your reference to the movie metaphor (I utilized The Da Vicnci Code), I have succeeded in deciphering the hidden message within the text of this thread. Here it is:

Even Though
Extra Thrust
Extends The
Effect (Through
Energy Transfer),

Evidently The
Errant Thinking
Ends The
Enlightenment, Temporarily
Eclipsing Truth.

It was right there in front of me the whole time, I just didn't see it until you made reference to "ET". Thank you, sir! (I suppose it could stand for something else, but I can't imagine what...)

If you'll excuse me now, my restraint straps are beginning to chafe, and Spazz jacked the last of the Baby Wipes.
 
#293 ·
Hey friends,

Just had a wonderful casting gathering with some friends this evening! Jerry, Fred, Mary and Lisa... What a day to end the fabulous year!
see the little video clip below... : )

Jerry picked up the ET force first time about 5 minutes of practice... his "chisel loop" is like a hot knife cut thought the butter...:thumb:
Z-Axis 1016 and TFO 6/7 13' in action, with the rage line... Oops, it is light line style too... Happy New Year!!! my friends! Mark



TCX 7126, Airflo Rage 360 grain + 10 poly. Great feel, wonderful set match! :D


Squirrel? Lemming? toilet brush? or just a wind resistance dry fly? What a day on the water!! :D
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top