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Outcast Frameless Oar Mounts

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4K views 39 replies 12 participants last post by  Mumbles 
#1 ·
INteresting video - they look like they've put a bit more thought into frameless oar mounts than some of the competitors. Not saying I'm a fan of these for whitewater use yet, but worthwhile to see anyways.
 
#3 ·
After nearly 10 years of whitewater use my Watermaster has had zero issues. I however did replace what in the video is an aluminum tube on the outcast with what originally was an abs tube with a solid piece of uhmw. This won't break or wear out in my lifetime. Seems the Watermaster version are the cats ass compared to the issue prone scadden versions. Cant speak to outcast as they are the new kids on the block with this type of system...the other thing I have done is gone to one piece oars as the two piece break at the diameter transition right at the junction point, kind of a poor design from Carlisle. To prevent the pin holes from ovalising I install a piece of 1-1/4" x 5" abs pipe over the shaft, much like the stock original oars. Just heat it up with a heat gun and slip it over then drill the hole.
 
#5 ·
railfish quote:
" Seems the Watermaster version are the cats ass compared to the issue prone scadden versions". WTF?? You don't have a clue what you are talking about. NFO...or scadden as you prefer, has sold thousands of rafts in mostly 10-12 styles over the last 10 years. Watermaster has sold a few hundred in that time, if that. How many 'failures' can you document? How many were user errors, using oars that are better suited to a framed model or impacting them against truck beds or boulders. What percentage are "scadden prone failures" to total rafts Dave has sold? Maybe .001% ??!! I have owned and used Watermasters , Waterstriders and now a Renegade for a lot longer than you stated along with most of my buddies who have owned all 3 and have never had or heard of this kind of failure. I guess outcast has had a problem, otherwise why the new design...which is a little better.but an overkill. Thru bolt the pin in 2 places, why, I have never seen or heard of one backing out and that's a lot of miles and oar strokes. I know none of this matters to you [ facts that is ] anything to jump on, dare I say, scaaaaden. Just go bounce your head off some boulders on some BC rivers. BOATS: Waterstrider, NFO,SFC. Rods GLX, IMX, Sage Batson RX8+. Reels Lamson Velocitys, Ross Rhythm .Lines: a lot. Engines 747,767, 777 GE's, Pratts TF-40"s 327 small blocks, 454 big blocks. 175+ on the road, 110+ in the open ocean[well, the Med. anyway] get the hint? who gives a shit?
 
#6 ·
Let me type this a bit slower so maybe you will comprehend what this thread is about. We are talking about the glue on/weld on oar lock system with the through the oar pin. I'm not sure how long scadden has been selling this specific oar lock system for, but not anywhere as long as Watermaster so your comment about how many types of rafts or how many scaddens have been sold etc has zero to do with what we are talking about in this thread. Who cares about you or you friends or anything else you have written, as if that has any bearing what so ever on the topic. If you do a search on this board you will find the issues specific to scadden and this type of oarlock system, even with pics so someone with very low reading comprehension would still understand . You still following or am I typing too fast ?

Here is a pic of a failed scadden oar lock :


http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/forum/index.php?attachments/image-jpg.38685/
 
#7 ·
Everyone but you knew I was referring to the this system. Why do you say glue on/ weld on? Don't you know that everyone heat welds, including the D-ring patches? The % of rafts to failures is exactly the point. The best design in the world can fail due to a MFG's problem. I suspect operator error or abuse[not intentional] would cause that type of problem, but the build process could be the issue. And it's not possible for you type, think or speak too fast for me.
 
#10 ·
Everyone but you knew I was referring to the this system. Why do you say glue on/ weld on? Don't you know that everyone heat welds, including the D-ring patches? The % of rafts to failures is exactly the point. The best design in the world can fail due to a MFG's problem. I suspect operator error or abuse[not intentional] would cause that type of problem, but the build process could be the issue. And it's not possible for you type, think or speak too fast for me.
First off i'm not really 100% sure heat welding is the right term to use. First off the definition of weld is "join together (metal pieces or parts) by heating the surfaces to the point of melting using a blowtorch, electric arc, or other means, and uniting them by pressing, hammering, etc."
the only true heat weld that I know of in the rafting industry is Maravia (thermofused technology).

If it was truly welded when a d ring patch started to tear off it would rip a hole in the boat and it would deflate (unless it was bladder construction). The point of heating the two materials is to get a stronger bond with the glue. It is in no way making the two pieces one.
 
#8 ·
Correct me if I am wrong, but NONE of these boat companies make these, they buy them. I can't imagine there are that many manufacturers, is there? We have a rafting company here that has these glue/weld ons for sell. I am betting they too buy them from one of the manufacturer. Can someone shed some light on this?
 
#9 ·
Correct me if I am wrong, but NONE of these boat companies make these, they buy them. I can't imagine there are that many manufacturers, is there? We have a rafting company here that has these glue/weld ons for sell. I am betting they too buy them from one of the manufacturer. Can someone shed some light on this?
I can't really shed light on if the come out of the same manufacture or not. But what I can say is all glue on/heat welded oar lock systems aren't the same. That NFO one is not the same as my watermaster and the outcast is not the same either. They are different products even if they come out of the same manufacture. Thus the controversy.
 
#11 ·
Heat welded is exactly the corrrect term. Incept Marine, who made Watermasters for years and Waterstriders since 1998 heat welds oar mount pads and all of the D-ring patches. NFO.....same thing: heat welded. I would be very surprised to discover that outcast or Maravia does it differently, even with a raft with bladders. The seams on all the above rafts are heat welded. It's nothing new and has been the mainstay for a very long, long time. Heat Welded!
 
#13 ·
I have glued things on my boats but I have never got as bonded as the stock NFO are so I too assumed they were welded of some sort.
Taking precaution to avoid breakage is a definite plus, but as the ol' saying, "$HT happens". I do recall reading one had theirs on the WM break so anything is possible. Add to that the numbers of boats sold with this kind of system and you can bet one will break here and there. I would not say NFO are more prone. But I think you will see more numbers of NFO boats out there which ups that chance.
Thanks for the all the answers here.
 
#14 ·
That is why I started the reply by saying "Oar Mount Pads and D-Ring patches. Imagine you are building a raft and you just finished "Heat Welding" the approximate 1" overlapped seams of the raft. Would you then put that equipment away and go grab a tube of glue to install everything else?? Think it out.
 
#15 ·
That is why I started the reply by saying "Oar Mount Pads and D-Ring patches. Imagine you are building a raft and you just finished "Heat Welding" the approximate 1" overlapped seams of the raft. Would you then put that equipment away and go grab a tube of glue to install everything else?? Think it out.
Go home and look at your D-ring patch and your raft seams. Tell me if they are even remotely the same.
 
#18 ·
Hey Sleezen, when you first posted about what raft to buy and how you were tired of being a guide and how you knew which end of a fly rod to pick up...I thought 2 things. Only raft this guy will buy is a Kodiak and that you were a punk. You proved me right on both counts and now your doing it again. Quit being a stupid punk and grow up! After Blue gave you so much good advice, you called her a liar! You then insinuated that Dave Scadden was guilty of questionable buisness practices by taking orders to pay past due bills. Quit being a punk. All of this you wrote when you were just blowing smoke out of where the sun doesn't shine. Quit being a punk!
 
#19 ·
Hey Sleezen, when you first posted about what raft to buy and how you were tired of being a guide and how you knew which end of a fly rod to pick up...I thought 2 things. Only raft this guy will buy is a Kodiak and that you were a punk. You proved me right on both counts and now your doing it again. Quit being a stupid punk and grow up! After Blue gave you so much good advice, you called her a liar! You then insinuated that Dave Scadden was guilty of questionable buisness practices by taking orders to pay past due bills. Quit being a punk. All of this you wrote when you were just blowing smoke out of where the sun doesn't shine. Quit being a punk!
Thanks for proving my last statement true!
 
#21 ·
Sportsman, if your dealings with Scadden were the same as mine, you wouldn't be calling anyone a punk on this topic. Shady would be complimentary when talking about the issues I had with the company.

I'm not the only person THAT I PERSONALLY KNOW who has been treated like shit after putting money down on one of their products. Used car salesman is a compliment.

Back to your regular programming.
 
#22 ·
Sportsman, if your dealings with Scadden were the same as mine, you wouldn't be calling anyone a punk on this topic. Shady would be complimentary when talking about the issues I had with the company.

I'm not the only person THAT I PERSONALLY KNOW who has been treated like shit after putting money down on one of their products. Used car salesman is a compliment.

Back to your regular programming.
I've heard this as well in regards to Scadden. I've also heard about bad quality products combined with shit service in regards to a watermaster incident, and that came from a more reputable source than I'd find anywhere on this forum.

At the end of the day, nothing is indestructible and everything is bound to break if you jam an oar against a rock enough times. Arguing about it on a forum is quite useless.

Hell, look at this:



Do Kias have these problems? Yup. Do porsches? Yup.
 
#23 ·
PT, the topic was/is "Oar Mount Pads". A comparison of the different styles referred to the "Issue Prone Scadden Versions". I just wanted to make it very clear that any number of failed oar locks, while a bummer for those who experienced it, is an extremely small PERCENT! Talk facts, not falsehoods, which is what was posted. # 1. What is the percent of total failures compared to total number of rafts sold?? # 2. What % of documented faiulres were from operator error or abuse. I doubt that it would exceed one in a thousand.....001% PT, when we met at the slough so you could buy the items I posted for sale, didn't you say that your personal dealings with Dave was 10-12 years ago?? You were also somewhat coy about letting me know who you actually were on this site, because we had just had some disagreements online....did you think I would not sell them to you? Anyway, it was a good transaction and we had a pleasant chat,
 
#24 ·
Hey Sportsman,

It's one thing to get your perspective across, it's another when you become insulting. What gives you the right to wish people to bounce their head off a rock, or calling them punks.
I'm sure if you were face to face you wouldn't talk to people in that manner. You lose any credibility when you're disrespectful to members on this board.
 
#26 ·
Hey Sportsman,

It's one thing to get your perspective across, it's another when you become insulting. What gives you the right to wish people to bounce their head off a rock, or calling them punks.
I'm sure if you were face to face you wouldn't talk to people in that manner. You lose any credibility when you're disrespectful to members on this board.
Fair enough, I see where you are coming from, but I stand by everything I wrote. When an blatanty false statement is posted, without any facts to back them up, I have always come out firing.....it has nothing to do with what boats I own. # 1. We all get it, the canucks on this site are whitewater guys, you have beat the frameless raft style to death. So don't buy them! # 2. As for the other guy I referred to, well, he has earned it. You can go back and read his posts, what he has written and you will see that many others feel the same as I do. Sorry if your sensibilities were offended, so you won't have to worry about me and any other posts....on this subject.
 
#27 ·
You were also somewhat coy about letting me know who you actually were on this site, because we had just had some disagreements online....did you think I would not sell them to you? Anyway, it was a good transaction and we had a pleasant chat,
I don't broadcast who I am to anyone on this site. Only PM and personal meetings. Nothing was different with that transaction in those regards. I have no issues with you and respect your opinion. You've been around the block and know your boats. We all have different experiences with products and I respect that many have high regards for NFO and their boats. Me and many others have not had that same positive experience and shouldn't be trashed on this forum because of it.
I know what the topic is. When you bash a guy because of his personal opinion about this subject, it's fair to point out yours isn't the only opinion that matters.

No big deal either way. Scadden has a loyal following but has also earned the lack of respect from many others.

To be clear, stuff breaks. And, I think it's usually pilot error rather than which company they buy their boat from.
 
#28 ·
# 1. We all get it, the canucks on this site are whitewater guys, you have beat the frameless raft style to death. So don't buy them!

Can you elaborate on this statement? I've seen plenty of post( not just this forum), and from other countries that have voiced their concerns.

If you've had a bad experience with a member, why not take the highroad and not publicly engage them on a forum? You have nothing to gain, and you have the potential to lose any credibility in doing so.
 
#30 ·
See and I get just as many pms if not more from people not posting because they have NFO and had no problem what so ever with the service and they don't want to be chastised. I know as I have been one. Plus I also know that we as forum readers, do not get "the whole" story. We are just taking people at their word. No reason not to, right.....
Sorry, but you yourself have had no experience with NFO, you just go off what you are told, as do (in PT's words) MANY people. They have never owned or used any of NFO product. I know you will go off on the oars, and again, I still say that was manufacturers delays. Can't ship em if you cant get em.
Walk a mile in their shoes before criticizing.

Back to the oars pins subject, started off a very interesting observation. Hopefully we can get more info on the materials of the others.
 
#31 ·
See and I get just as many pms if not more from people not posting because they have NFO and had no problem what so ever with the service and they don't want to be chastised. I know as I have been one. Plus I also know that we as forum readers, do not get "the whole" story. We are just taking people at their word. No reason not to, right.....
Sorry, but you yourself have had no experience with NFO, you just go off what you are told, as do (in PT's words) MANY people. They have never owned or used any of NFO product. I know you will go off on the oars, and again, I still say that was manufacturers delays. Can't ship em if you cant get em.
Walk a mile in their shoes before criticizing.

Back to the oars pins subject, started off a very interesting observation. Hopefully we can get more info on the materials of the others.
It's not the number of good reviews that matter it is the number of bad reviews. Why didn't they PM me to let me know they had good experience. 20+ people questioning NFO customer service and 0 people defending them in PMs. Kinda lop sided.

Anyways it doesn't really matter. People will make theie own decisions based on what they read and i'm sure they will be happy either way.
 
#32 ·
It's not the number of good reviews that matter it is the number of bad reviews. Why didn't they PM me to let me know they had good experience. 20+ people questioning NFO customer service and 0 people defending them in PMs. Kinda lop sided.
Why would someone waste their time pming you with a counter argument when you have clearly made up your mind? It accomplishes nothing.

You all care way too much about arguing over these useless points. All oars break when you bang them into rocks enough times. Running to a forum blaming a manufacturer for user error is pretty weak
 
#33 ·
Why would someone waste their time pming you with a counter argument when you have clearly made up your mind? It accomplishes nothing.

You all care way too much about arguing over these useless points. All oars break when you bang them into rocks enough times. Running to a forum blaming a manufacturer for user error is pretty weak
Sorry for not being clear. I am talking about the old post I made about NFO vs Watermaster and which to get. I hadn't made up my mind when I received the PMs discussed.

Lastly I have never blamed the a manufacturer for probably what is a user error. But if the user error is re-occurring it might just not be a user error it could be a manufacturer issue. I can't speak to this as I have not seen enough cases.

Hence why car companies make recalls. Because what may have been thought to be a user error the first 100 times might not be a user error after the 10,000 time.
 
#36 ·
railfish, just on the off chance you are referring to me it's Ok. Decorum,,,really? Intelligence, Boeing trusts me with their engines and I did spend 9 years travelling the world installing turbine powered propulsions systems in Mega Yachts and off-shore race boats, not Mensa , but I do OK. Lack of respect, for you I have none because of this quote by YOU: " Seems the Watermaster version are the cats ass compared to the issue prone scadden versions". So I consider that statement as being somewhere between totally misinformed or you are an outright liar. I really don't care which and anything you think of me I will proudly wear compared to what you have proven to be!
 
#37 ·
Not trying to be disrespectful here or anything - but I think somebody needs to get laid...

This thread reminds me of way back in my Jr. High days (the Mustang had just been invented - just to give an idea of how long ago this was) - my buddies and I would have arguments of which cars were better;

Ford
Chevrolet or
Dodge
....but we never got as wound up about it as some of you guys have on this thread.

We're talking about flyfishing here folks, take a deep breath and relax.
 
#38 ·
Not that it will move heaven and earth, but I have read the term "prone" and "many". I have read some oar holders have broke, but as mentioned I have also read WM breaks as well. I also read for every 10 NFO there are maybe 3 WM. "Many" do own NFO, more so that WM and that is a fact that has been pretty much proven.
As far as the boat its self, I have read one complaint at the quality and I did get to see this complaint. It was self imposed. Kinda like breaking that Orvis rod to get a new one idea.
I read maybe a hand full of people that have actually owned a NFO that have any kind of bitch at all, and those handful still admit they love their boat regardless.
Steez "20+ people questioning NFO customer service and 0 people defending them in PMs ". Might not have been in pm's, but there was people defending them, you just chose to read what you wanted and to (again) chastise the positive. But you are happy with that choice and may never know the other side of the coin, but it does leave it one sided.
With no disrespect for anyone, we are all different with different likes and needs. Just good there are different choices to keep us happy. I say HAPPY. I am going fishing.
 
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