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indicators in fly only water?

16K views 250 replies 46 participants last post by  Steelhead 
#1 ·
I Know in fly only water like the nf stilly you are not allowed to use shot on your leader but the rules don't say anything about indicators... Is it legal?
 
#42 ·
really? all year long? I haven't been over there in years, like 15 or so but used to fish it often when I lived closer. When and how did that change? I kind of liked that rule over there. Kept the pressure down I think. Of course I kind of view sink tips on the same level as using a indicator.

One you are a goddamn bobber fisherman, the other you might as well be swinging a blue fox. Heathens either way.
 
#47 ·
"Even the N Umpqua has relaxed its strict policies on the fly only water- sink tip lines allowed. "

Well...yes and no.
Please reread....time of year constraints.

Also, the rules are almost written identical (if not the same) for the N Umpqua and Metolius; BUT. the interpretation of those rules are different. (I made the calls to both ODFW field offices and the OSP divisions)...just thought you should know.
 
#58 ·
It's well acknowledged thst bobber fishing a nymph is deadly. No argument.
Is swinging a "less effective" technique? Maybe if you don't master it. However if you try to accomplish the same mending mastery/ seam reading/ drift control with a more traditional presentation I think your success rate will climb quickly.

Is it more difficult to learn to present a fly at the exact depth/ current seam? I think so. Is it impossible? Not at all.
 
#60 ·
Napoleon complex, or "short man syndrome", is a pejorative slang term describing a type of psychological phenomenon which is said to exist in people, usually men, of short stature.[1] It is characterized by overly-aggressive or domineering social behaviour, and carries the implication that such behaviour is compensatory for the subjects' stature. The term is also used more generally to describe people who are driven by a perceived handicap to overcompensate in other aspects of their lives. Other names for the term include Napoleon syndrome[2] and Short Man syndrome.[3]
 
#67 ·
I'm a big fan of high stick nymphing. I'm also a big fan of the drag free dead drift.

Anyone who claims superiority with a single technique is ignorant.
Think about all the different water out there. No one technique is going to be best for it all. Don't let anyone convince you that one technique is the answer. Challenge yourself as a fisherman! Try to do things as many ways as you can. Master mending and line control! Become a better all around angler.
 
#69 ·
Ira,

Surely we have been through this before. Respect is among the last things I strive for in indicator threads, but I'd hate to learn that you've lost respect for me on all topics and all things.

Ignorance abounds to a degree among all the fraternities, swing, indicator, and others. You won't find me denying that nymph fishing requires skill, just as most methods require skill to do well. It might be true that in order to experience the highest possible success in indicator fishing requires more skill than is required to enjoy the highest possible success while swing fishing; I honestly don't know. However it doesn't require extremely high skill in order to experience a good degree of success with indicator fishing, and I think that is why it attracts some anglers who haven't experienced much success with the traditional swing method.

As for swingers demonizing indicator fishermen, I think they do it because they see the indicator guys taking the easy way out, meaning they will hook more fish per unit of time spent fishing than if they stuck with the swing. I, on the other hand, only demonize indicator fishermen on internet indicator threads because I find it hilariously funny that such a large mountain can be made of such a small mole hill.

I do agree with those who think it is more of an accomplishment to hook a steelhead on a swung fly than by nymphing for the same reason it is more of an accomplishment to do most anything with a less effective method. Choosing to swing flies for steelhead rather than indicator nymph is to adopt a self-imposed constraint that limits success when measured in hook ups per hour angled. Sort of like traditional bow hunting (recurve or longbow) limits one to spend more hours to get within range for an effective kill shot than with a modern firearm. Then there are contemporary compound wheel bows, that are analogous to indicator fishing in that they allow success rates similar to some firearm hunting because of their extended range.

The less effective method is not a superior method. It is just less effective, and in this case, is more traditional, which has value in itself to some folks. Another aspect of traditional swing fishing that I think is over-looked is that it effectively spreads a limited resource among more users due to its inherent limitations. The NF Stilly is an excellent example of this. A large part of the original intent of the NF Stilly fly only regulations was in the recognition that allowing anything goes fishing would rapidly deplete the native summer steelhead population. And that would not be good for the fish; and it would have meant recreation for far fewer anglers. Of course this was all before the notion of CNR was a part of angling consciousness, let alone fishing regulations, but it still applies under contemporary CNR circumstances.

Ira, you with your superior method and preference for it and acquired skill set may kill or sore mouth steelhead that would have provided recreation for 6 or 10 traditional anglers. Surely you don't think I ought to congratulate you for that now, do you?

BTW, if you know what the mystique of the swung fly is, would you please tell me, because I sure as hell don't know. It is a mystique to me however, because I cannot fathom why steelhead, and other fish, move to it, just as I cannot fathom why they grab a dead drifted plastic bead. But I am grateful that they do, the swung fly, that is.

Yes Ira, I have read a number of your other posts on this subject. What I take from it is that you seem to take this internet topic a tad more seriously than I do. I'm mostly having fun with it while also trying to mix in a small amount of educational content, which I may not be very successful at.

And yes, you should encourage other anglers to swing flies so that you can have all those unmoved steelhead to your indicating self, if that's what you really want out of this sport. We should meet for a beer and then see how much time we're really willing to waste on this topic.

Sg
 
G
#70 ·
Ira,

Surely we have been through this before. Respect is among the last things I strive for in indicator threads, but I'd hate to learn that you've lost respect for me on all topics and all things.

Ignorance abounds to a degree among all the fraternities, swing, indicator, and others. You won't find me denying that nymph fishing requires skill, just as most methods require skill to do well. It might be true that in order to experience the highest possible success in indicator fishing requires more skill than is required to enjoy the highest possible success while swing fishing; I honestly don't know. However it doesn't require extremely high skill in order to experience a good degree of success with indicator fishing, and I think that is why it attracts some anglers who haven't experienced much success with the traditional swing method.

As for swingers demonizing indicator fishermen, I think they do it because they see the indicator guys taking the easy way out, meaning they will hook more fish per unit of time spent fishing than if they stuck with the swing. I, on the other hand, only demonize indicator fishermen on internet indicator threads because I find it hilariously funny that such a large mountain can be made of such a small mole hill.

I do agree with those who think it is more of an accomplishment to hook a steelhead on a swung fly than by nymphing for the same reason it is more of an accomplishment to do most anything with a less effective method. Choosing to swing flies for steelhead rather than indicator nymph is to adopt a self-imposed constraint that limits success when measured in hook ups per hour angled. Sort of like traditional bow hunting (recurve or longbow) limits one to spend more hours to get within range for an effective kill shot than with a modern firearm. Then there are contemporary compound wheel bows, that are analogous to indicator fishing in that they allow success rates similar to some firearm hunting because of their extended range.

The less effective method is not a superior method. It is just less effective, and in this case, is more traditional, which has value in itself to some folks. Another aspect of traditional swing fishing that I think is over-looked is that it effectively spreads a limited resource among more users due to its inherent limitations. The NF Stilly is an excellent example of this. A large part of the original intent of the NF Stilly fly only regulations was in the recognition that allowing anything goes fishing would rapidly deplete the native summer steelhead population. And that would not be good for the fish; and it would have meant recreation for far fewer anglers. Of course this was all before the notion of CNR was a part of angling consciousness, let alone fishing regulations, but it still applies under contemporary CNR circumstances.

Ira, you with your superior method and preference for it and acquired skill set may kill or sore mouth steelhead that would have provided recreation for 6 or 10 traditional anglers. Surely you don't think I ought to congratulate you for that now, do you?

BTW, if you know what the mystique of the swung fly is, would you please tell me, because I sure as hell don't know. It is a mystique to me however, because I cannot fathom why steelhead, and other fish, move to it, just as I cannot fathom why they grab a dead drifted plastic bead. But I am grateful that they do, the swung fly, that is.

Yes Ira, I have read a number of your other posts on this subject. What I take from it is that you seem to take this internet topic a tad more seriously than I do. I'm mostly having fun with it while also trying to mix in a small amount of educational content, which I may not be very successful at.

And yes, you should encourage other anglers to swing flies so that you can have all those unmoved steelhead to your indicating self, if that's what you really want out of this sport. We should meet for a beer and then see how much time we're really willing to waste on this topic.

Sg
I say no to any private meetings, this debate is far to entertaining to stop now !
 
#74 ·
Ira- I've done a lot better than 2 for 6 swinging the NF Stilly ;)

Hook placement in the mouth may be the only difference, BUT I was working for WDFW while we were doing the angling mortality/ satellite tag project for steelhead on the Samish. Bait, gear, fly... 70% of all hook placement was in the safe area of the mouth. We had 1 deep hooked bait fish. Thsts it. Most hooks regardless of under float, caught on spinner, etc were in the upper jaw, with corner of the jaw a close second.
If bobber fishing does anything to the fish- it exposes more fish to potential angling mortality- which was shown by the same study to be extremely low- I think it was sub 1%
I think the biggest variable to angling mortality is speed of capture, delicacy of release.
If you "play" a fish on 4# mono and super light drag for 30min..... It's gonna have a much better chance of dying. :( if you fight it hard on appropriate gear and revive/release in a hurry.... Your fish has a good chance of living, regardless of angling method
 
#77 ·
Swing beads. Use it as a "trailer" behind a fully dressed Thunder and Lightning. Or other suitable swingable. Just be prepared to hook all your fish on the bead :D

Just not on the NF, as I am pretty sure that is illegal.
 
#79 ·
The problem with nymphing is that is sucks. Pure and simple, it is no fun. I'd truly rather not fish than fish a bobber of any sort in the river. Hooked fish don't get me excited if nymhed up. I'd rather be mowing my lawn.

I truly 100% don't understand the alore at all. I find the thought of nymphing unpleasant at best and hate seeing nymphers or even internet discusions of nymphing because it sucks.

Go Sox,
cds
 
#80 ·
The problem with nymphing is that is sucks. Pure and simple, it is no fun. I'd truly rather not fish than fish a bobber of any sort in the river. Hooked fish don't get me excited if nymhed up. I'd rather be mowing my lawn.

I truly 100% don't understand the alore at all. I find the thought of nymphing unpleasant at best and hate seeing nymphers or even internet discusions of nymphing because it sucks.

Go Sox,
cds
That's funny, because I feel the same way about swinging flies. I call it "brain drain" because it's so mind numbingly boring. I usually set my girlfriend up to swing flies because getting a drag free drift with a nymph is too challenging.
 
#82 ·
So swingers who pick on indicator fisherman, now I get it. Thanks for the clarification. Although you said nymphers with this syndrome... can't say that I've met one.
What I typed is a pretty accurate comparison. I don't expect people with NC to actually see it themselves. As many times as you've stated you can't be offended without your consent, these threads sure would lead some to believe different. What's the old saying, "thou dost protest too much"?
 
#83 ·
That's funny, because I feel the same way about swinging flies. I call it "brain drain" because it's so mind numbingly boring. I usually set my girlfriend up to swing flies because getting a drag free drift with a nymph is too challenging.
Nymphing and swinging are actually pretty easy. To do it well, with solid results, is the hard part. I've done a fair bit of both and know I'd outfish myself probably close to 6-1 if I strictly nymphed.

Here's the point of why I think nymphing is much easier. And, to be clear, I really don't care how someone else fishes. I just get a kick out of both sides trying to make a point that can't be made. Nymphing is easier in that you can add some shot, adjust your depth and know you're on the bottom. The hard part of nymphing is the part where you actually have to cast all that crap out there. Swinging, not so. It takes more "skill" to properly present a fly within a foot of bottom OTS (on the swing). On the bottom is where you're going to consistently catch steelhead, not mid water column. Anyone can lob some lead out there under a float, mend a bit, feed a bit of line, and cover the bottom with more ease than a person who's trying to figure out how to swing their fly..... near the bottom, nice and slow, and keep it there. There's a reason you see all the guides bobbercatin' their way down the river rather than having their clients do the swingin' 2 step.

Again, I've got more important things to do than spend a minute of my life worrying about how someone else fishes. The part that does interest me, is that attitude with which others have about their preferred way of angling. THAT, I find somewhat comical.

The only real important part of this affliction called FF'ing is that we enjoy it. All this other stuff is simply BS.
 
#88 ·
Again, I've got more important things to do than spend a minute of my life worrying about how someone else fishes. The part that does interest me, is that attitude with which others have about their preferred way of angling. THAT, I find somewhat comical.

The only real important part of this affliction called FF'ing is that we enjoy it. All this other stuff is simply BS.
This is the point that I continue to make. I always make it clear that I don't care how others fish and my interjections on the subject are only in response to swinger zealots. I do not for a second think that my way of fishing is the best way for everyone else it is though how I most enjoy the sport and I think it is funny that others struggle with the fact that I like to fish an indicator and they think I do it only to catch more fish. I do catch fish with an indicator but I've taken enough people out now with fishing skill to be aware enough that it is not as easy to do successfully as many people make it out to be. I still fish with some very good anglers who just don't do as well as I do fishing the same method I fish, even if I set them up with the depth and the flies. Not being arrogant, but I believe I do better because it is what I love to do so I've taken the time to really understand it.

PT, if you really don't want to spend a minute of your life worrying about how someone else fishes, why do you keep responding to these posts? For fun like me?
 
#84 ·
One of the good things about getting to be an old fart is that one has a sense of history.

Up until the early 1980s the fly fishing only regulations precluded any flies that had weight attached or included in the tie of fly. That was changed out of desire of anglers that wanted to use weighted flies on lakes (Chironomid fishing) or in getting flies down easier on steelhead waters. Initially this change was not a large issue.

Angler protocol at the time on steelhead waters that anglers (fishing on the swing or skating dries) would work their down the run with new anglers stepping in the water above the anglers that were all ready working the run. On reach the tailout and angler would either move on or return to the top of the run and step in at the back of the line. On popular water like that below Deer Creek on the North Fork Stilly that gave all the anglers a shot at the prime hot spots. It was not uncommon to see a dozen or more anglers working that water on a morning during the prime season and times.

The conflict between the old school swingers and the indicator fishers came to head during the mid 1990s on the NF Stilly. At that time the number of Deer Creek rebound nicely from the low point of the previous decade providing some excellent steelhead fishing. A handful of anglers using indicators took that method to the logically conclusion. 3 inch indicators supporting "flies/jigs" weighing 1/8 to as much as 3/8 of an ounce became common. But the real back lash in the conflict between the two user groups occurred when a handful of anglers using indicators would anchor themselves on the key hot spots. Those anglers would monopolize those spots for hours and at times catching dozens of steelhead a morning while precluding other anglers any chance at that water.

Bottom line the conflict is less about the gear and more about the lack of courtesy and respect of fellow anglers and even the fish. While it is unfair to paint all anglers fishing with either method with the same broad brush it is easy to understand why there maybe some deep rooted anger.

curt
 
#85 ·
Oh yeah, those guys with the big ass floats and heavy ass jigs would post up ALL FUCKING DAY on the prime deer creek water. They thought they were so awesome, and were so fucking cocky about it too. I know at least one of those guys got his tires slashed ( not by me)

I started fishing the NF Stilly in 96 when this controversy really started to get bad... there was a set of guys who used to do this in the pool where deer creek drops into the Stilly ( above the run everyone fishes) and they were there all the time with HUGE floats. They werent even really casting their setups, total lob/chuck and duck and really I think they had fly line on centerpin reels. It was kind of a big FUCK YOU to the rest of us who were hardcore regulars on that river. Numerous interactions with wardens and other fishermen. Really just left a bad taste in everyones mouth.
 
#86 ·
The return of the wild Deer Creek summer steelhead in 1996 was epic! Not only were there lots of fish in the river (may have been the best return in what may have been 4 decades) the number of exceptional sized fish (fish to the middle teens) was unprecedented. It was unfortunate that what should have been a banner year for all was dominated by so few.

curt
 
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