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Fishing with flies, but not fly fishing

19K views 296 replies 73 participants last post by  seatSniffer 
#1 ·
There have been several threads posted recently concerning thingamabobs and other flotsam and jetsam used by some fishers as their fly fishing technique. I have commented on all those threads that using a bobber is fishing with flies, but it is NOT fly fishing. My feeling is that if you use a nymph below a bobber you might as well get a hickory stick, a piece of string, an old cork and a worm. In fact, the only difference between having a nymph fly under a bobber and a worm is that the worm is cheaper.

When I made my thoughts known on those threads I was severely chastised by some because I somehow dared to voice an opinion. Clearly, forum threads on bobbers will engender responses which the floater crowd does not like. I assume that those who fish using plastic phellems have an inferiority complex because they know that what they are doing is not fly fishing. You can give a 5 year old a bobber set up and tell him/her to pull up when the float goes down. If there is any fly fishing technique involved I don't know what it is. The bobber boys attack the messenger, rather than seriously respond to the critique.

One of the whiners suggested I start a thread on this subject (so as not to taint the purity of the bobber blubber?). So here it is:

Is fishing with bobbers fly fishing or is it just fishing with flies?
 
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#94 ·
how does fishing for non-traditional fish species equate to fishing gear fishing techniques with fly gear? seems like a stretch since much of the progression in gear and flies has come from non-trout fisheries as new challenges arise to catch fish like carp, tarpon, bonefish, dolphin, etc. while fly fishing. sometimes those efforts do cross the line imo (spoon flies, gummy minnows) but side drifting beads from a boat or bucktailing has nothing to do with progression or challenge. i will concur that nymphing while wading or stationary is more complicated than it might seem and isn't the same as side drifting the same tackle from a boat.

it isn't always about catching more fish, as there are times when fly fishing will catch more fish than the gear fishing methods.

ps, i hate that zen/art bullshit argument as much as anyone.

i'm starting to hate these threads and i'm a definitionalist ;)
 
#97 ·
After living in Billings for a period of my life, the Bighorn River was my home water. I worked one summer at a guide shop in Ft. Smith, became acquainted with all the guides in the area and today call many of them my personal friends. I have fished this river in every season, floated every great strech of water it has to offer and have taken advantage of presenting dry flies during its legendary beatis, black caddis, trico and PMD hatches and in the fall with hoppers. The subtle take on a dry fly provides me no more or less of an experience as seeing my indicator stop or feeling the hard tug on a streamer. I never limited my fly fishing experience to only fishing dry flies, nymphs or streamers but had three rods rigged in the boat so that I could optimize my time out on the water and utilize the best presentation at that moment.

I once asked one of my guide friends when we were fishing, what client in his mind stood out the most to him. He has been guiding on this river for a very long time so I was fully expecting his answer to be a famous athlete, musician or actor. He told me many horror stories about a few but his best client was an ex special forces Marine that lost his left arm and leg due to his combat incident in Iraq. His prosthetic arm didn't allow him to be able to double haul that well or manage line, but his working hand gave him the ability to roll cast his indicator and flies and partake in the sport of fly fishing. The guide worked very hard for this client and after a very successful day of fishing and cherished memories, he confessed that that trip was one of best days he had ever experienced. He still comes back each year and continues to enjoy each outing as if it was his first trip.

What is very sad to me and everyone else is that you don't need to feel sorry for me or the vet that spent his day staring at a piece of plastic on the BigHorn River. You need to feel sorry for yourself that your pious and indignant rationalization of what fly fishing is vs what it is not, would allow you to pass judgement on someone that almost lost his life to protect your freedom to fish the very river that he enjoys each summer.

Yes, I will never understand your meaning of "Zen" when it comes to fly fishing but I also never wear pink Simms yoga pants under my waders....;)
 
#98 ·
It is all fishing. I do not care what technique you use. Are you having fun? I have used them all at one time or another and will continue to do so. I am a fly fisherman, a gear fisherman, a bass guy, deep sea fisherman...... I just love fishing. If you cast dispersion one form or technique that is on you. I get so tired of my brothers in fly fishing looking down their collective nose at others who fish differently than they do. We are losing so much of our common resource that we need to not be so petty. If you do not practice a particular technique don't crap on others. Look out to the broader fishing landscape and realize that they are all part of our community. We fly fish for many reasons, but remember that most of us started fishing with a different technique and we would not have come to fly fishing without that first step.

Think first, Speak (write) Second. Advice from my old man....I realize that he was right...
 
G
#100 ·
I would have to say you would have to be a independent minded thinker and possibly a fishing intervator,it is likely that somebody else has cast a scum frog before so I would doubt your a revolutionary but it is a possibility as I have never researched the history of scum frog casting as a fly fishing art form.
 
#102 ·
fly fishing has a definition it cannot be different for every person. if it has a definition then some forms of fishing are it and others are not.. it's not about being elite, it' about defining what we do separate from what gear fishermen do. no it doesn't matter in the slightest, but if there is no difference between fly fishing and gear fishing why even have this forum???

I bet if i started talking about how to use powerbait for planter trout or bobber and eggs for chinook i'd have indicator guys crawling all over me about how this is a fly fishing board...

fly fishing has a definition, it's not different for every person and does not include everything that everyone wants it to. does it matter? again no.
Excuse me. I should have said "indicator rig" with a bead. I don't use a bobber unless, in the very rare occasion, I might be drift fishing from a boat, with a gear rod. That too, has been years ago. I don't gear fish, often.
 
#104 ·
What is fly fishing?
It all comes down to something like what the late US Supreme Court Justice Stewart said about pornography "I know it when I see it" For me, I have seen (and done) bobber fishing. Using Justice Stewart's definition, it aint fly fishing!
 
#105 ·
What is fly fishing?
It all comes down to something like what the late US Supreme Court Justice Stewart said about pornography "I know it when I see it" For me, I have seen (and done) bobber fishing. Using Justice Stewart's definition, it aint fly fishing!
Cool. And living in New Hampshire, I'm sure you're an expert on Washington's fisheries. Thanks for bringing us your infinite wisdom. You must know an awful lot about our fishing out here to try and shit all over us and tell us your ways are better than ours. I invite you to come out to any given WA river and cast dries upstream all day and see what kind of results you get.
 
#107 ·
The dry fly purist culture is alive and well in that part of the country. I've experienced in person many a time on work trips. These guys I talk to out there know little to nothing about our fisheries here, and turn their noses up when I tell them how we go about approaching our fisheries.

Since all of their streams are full of small, very grabby, very surface oriented trout and char, they think that everyone else in the world must have the same types of fisheries available.
 
#205 ·
The dry fly purist culture is alive and well in that part of the country. I've experienced in person many a time on work trips. These guys I talk to out there know little to nothing about our fisheries here, and turn their noses up when I tell them how we go about approaching our fisheries.

Since all of their streams are full of small, very grabby, very surface oriented trout and char, they think that everyone else in the world must have the same types of fisheries available.
If all he loves is dry fly action, he's missing out on a helluva lot of fun fishing, he is like 20 miles from awesome shad runs, 30 miles from an array of striper and bluefishing opportunities, all of them on the fly, all of which would probably blow his mind, not to mention tons of topwater bass action on poppers, pickeral and white perch takes on streamers, hickory shad on euphasids, mackerel on tinsel flies etc.

I'd say if all you love is fishing for is stocked trout on topwater, great, so be it, most of us get the karmic jollies out of figuring out all kinds of ways to catch all kinds fish. Me I am working on squid, I want to catch squid with flies, flies with like a dozen tiny needle like spikes....
 
#109 ·
What is fly fishing?
It all comes down to something like what the late US Supreme Court Justice Stewart said about pornography "I know it when I see it" For me, I have seen (and done) bobber fishing. Using Justice Stewart's definition, it aint fly fishing!
What it really comes down to is who really gives a f*#k what you think. You seem to care and that's all that really matters.... to you.

The broader your knowledge of the fish and the techniques used to catch fish, the more you can enjoy different fisheries and conditions.

Pretty simple, really!
 
#113 ·
You are exactly right. The messenger (me) and not the message is being attacked. An intelligent discourse seems impossible.

As the OP I would ask that this thread be locked.
You are laughable indeed sir. You chastise a huge majority of fly fisherman, say that their methods are not worth anything and then expect an intelligent discourse! "You might as well use a hickory stick" "In fact, the only difference between having a nymph fly under a bobber and a worm is that the worm is cheaper. ", was intelligent discourse? No wonder people think you are a joke. What was intelligent about that discourse? Really, help me understand your position in a more intelligent manner.
 
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#123 ·
why are anti-indicator guys so sensitive? its just fishing. it doesn't have to define you. if my life was measured by my fishing ability i would go kill myself. i have an opinion on this but have learned not to share as nothing constructive ever comes of it. everybody gets a trophy, thanks for coming out. yeah!
 
#122 ·
"He who speaks does not know, he who knows does not speak" ~Lao Tzu
What about those folks who are mute? What about typing?

These threads are fun because they end up proving very, very few fly anglers today are the elitist anglers that some folks believe us to be.

The only use a dry fly, cast it upstream and wear a tweed suit approach to fly angling is long gone for normal folks. But there are some fanatical hold-outs :D

Each to their own.
 
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#124 ·
most aren't that I've come across. i think most only get pissed when there's an ettiquete or manners issue over water.
A perceived etiquette or manners issue, not necessarily an actual etiquette or manners issue. And this is where the anti-indicator folks become so sensitive. Funny that you say the indicator guys are sensitive, but it seems to me that the anti-indicator folks are the ones who tend to always start these dang things.
 
#125 ·
Ok, enough! I thought I was doing the right thing by shutting down this thread as I saw it was going off the rails due to the ad holmium attacks against me. However, since the mob mentality has taken over and posters have come out from under rocks I will respond to some of the foolishness.

1. How dare I comment about fly fishing in WA when I live in NH? Great thought there! I realize it's an odd concept, but fishing is pretty much fishing wherever you throw a fly. The fiy gets wet and one tries to catch a fish. It's the same in WA, NH, or NZ. This is a basic concept, but it appears that it needs pointing out.

2. How dare I comment on WA fishing board when I live in NH? Well here are the facts. This is an OPEN board which means, in very simple terms, that it is OPEN to all. In fact, I came to this board a few years ago when I was going to be in Seattle and wanted info on guides for the Yak. Based on the assistance I got here I hired a guide for a few days (expensive, but worth it for a short trip to new locations). I had 2 good days of fishing: Mostly dries (skwalas), but I did swing some streamers and a few woolies.

3. How dare I comment about fishing techniques I have never tried? As a matter of fact, I have been fly fishing for over 50 years. I have tried most every type of fishing technique (including bobbers) and gear that has come along during my lifetime. I have also fished all over the world from South Island to the Dan River in Poland. I feel that I am at least reasonably competent in the sport and have the bona fides to state that bobber fishing is not fly fishing.
4. How dare I quote a US Supreme Court Justice The quote I gave from Justice Stewart is directly applicable to this thread. If you don't understand the metaphor I will point it out to you: Some things are so evident that you don't need a definition to understand. Then again, given the intelligence level I have experienced here, maybe I should try to find a crayon font

5. How dare I denigrate a fishing technique that can be used by the disabled? First of all, I never, ever said anything like that! As a matter of fact, one of my late relatives (and the one who taught me to fly fish) became partially disabled due to a stroke in late life. I made it my business to take him fishing and find him one of those self-retrieve reels so he could fish. When his eyesight started to fail I found the biggest, most iridescent day glow bobber I could get so that he could keep fishing which he did to within a month of his death

6. It is clear to me that I have exposed some raw nerve here about bobbers. The attacks on me are being made because the bobber users understand that their preferred method of fishing is facile and requires no skill. In fact, you could go back to spin fishing and find no difference. Please don't whine at me about the "conditions" which require you to need a bobber. What hogwash! Yes it is harder to fish without the bobber and yes you will lose flies as they bounce on the bottom and get snagged, but you will earn your fish. As my great uncle said: "If you are not losing nymphs you are not doing it right"

7. Counting coup (probably another thing I have to explain) as a measure of your fishing prowess is a false goal. It matters not how many fish you catch, (yes you will "outfish" me with your bobber) but what matters is personal pride, which it appears that few have. Note Counting coup was a method of war used by Native Americans whereby they would tap (coup is French word for hit) their enemies thereby showing they were very manly in getting close, yet did not kill their adversary. It's similar to catch and release, but that is another subject that probably would be much debated here.

8. You can fish any way you want. I don't care, nor did I ever state that I cared how you fish. I simply gave my opinion that what you are doing is not fly fishing and you should not hurt your casting arms by reaching around to pat yourselves on the back when you have that 50 fish day.

9. I am still here in NH awaiting the season to open, the ice to melt, and the spring run off to slow. You can find me on the river. I am the one with the cane pole!

 
#126 ·
A legitimate question for the "not a fan of indicators" crowd. Is it all indicator fishing or is it just the "sidedrifting" beads scene that you dislike? I've never done the sidedrifting thing (it looks boring as shit so I can't imagine I'll ever partake in that rodeo) but I have indicator fished from the bank (trout and steelhead) and it can be down right challenging depending on the water. I'd practically given up on indy nymphing until someone who was good at it show'd me a thing or two.
 
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