On religion and such

chadk

Be the guide...
#31
"So Genesis was a lie...no one died. Eve had some kids didn't she...she didn't die, she was just relocated 'cuz she called gods bluff...she learned something. "

Dude, last I checked, Eve is deader than a door nail. The idea is that there was no death before the 'first sin'. Sin brought death into the world.


"brainwashing through guilt and intimidation"

I agree that many make Christianity much more 'religious' than I believe it was intended to be. And as I've said before, I see Christianity as an 'anti religion' - and don't agree with the direction it has been taken by more 'religious' and rigid groups. Clearly there is danger in directly linking religion with government and that kind of power has been abused throughout history. This is a downfall of mankind and not a reflection of what Christianity is meant to be. (and no, I don't think the US anywhere close to a theocracy. It just happens that we are historically and currently a majority 'Christian'. But we don't have an 'official religion' that we must recognize...)

Anyway, I see the same "brainwashing" done by zealots of all kinds. Formal religion is just one obvious example. But it is also very prevalent politically and socially. It can be observed in the scientific community, universities and the education system as a whole, and in the media and entertainment industries, etc. Just think about the movies we see, the news we hear, the books we read, and the music we fill our heads with. It's all a form of 'brain washing' - some is just more obvious than others. And we all seem to think we are immune from it. Personally I see it competing all around me and I try to make conscious choices as to what I want to influence me. I like to be a critical and analytical thinker and apply a heavy dose of discernment when approaching anything in life. As Zen said above, I like to think for myself.



"I implore everyone to read this article by respected journalist Bill Moyers. He details how our current christian administration doesn't care about our natural world. They are trying to accelerate armeggedon with their policies. The sooner the natural world is destroyed, the sooner they sit next to their god."

Oh, and we had fun a few times already with this one. Yours is the 3rd post on Moyers little speech recently. And while there are bits and pieces of truth sprinkled in, I think we (well, I'm sure some took it hook line and sinker) were able to debunk it as political hype that could easily be described as 'fear mongering' and "brainwashing through guilt and intimidation"....
 
#32
dmoocher said:
If fear and ignorance were not a cornerstone of christianity, then why was the "tree of knowledge" forbidden? Is knowledge a threat to primitive belief systems?
Just one quick post while I'm on break. Roper makes a good point about the translations from an ancient language. Point in case...
In the septuagint, the Greek Old Testament, there are different forms of the verb "to know" and its corresponding noun "knowledge". Some occurences of "knowledge" come from the Greek word "oida" (transliterated into English letters). This word means basically to mentally perceive or know by seeing something. "Oida" (where we get the english word "video"), is NOT used to describe knowledge that comes by exertion or experience. The other most common word for "knowledge" comes from the Greek word "Ginosko", which means to know or understand by exertion or experience.
The greek word translated into "knowledge" in "the tree of knowledge of good and evil", comes from the word "ginosko". God did not want man to experientially know the devastating effects of performing evil. IE-God didn't want his kids to get hurt...no different than one of us telling our child to not touch a hot burner on the stove. Does this make us bad parents because we didn't let our child experience every possible form of painful experience? Of course not.
However, if you study the record of Genesis, you would see that God instructed Adam and Eve. He DID want them to "oida", mentally perceive and be aware of evil so they could avoid harm. Did you happen to notice that Adam's job was to dress and keep the garden? Where was the tree of knowledge of good and evil? -in the midst of the garden. Adam was to dress & keep that tree as well...just not to eat (assimilate) of it. Notice how later when the serpent beguiles Eve, that she lets her mind slip & adds an additional commandment "neither shall ye touch it". God never commanded this; quite the contrary. Eve changed the word of God, & got herself into the soup....people still doing the same today; adding and taking away from the scripture.
God wanted His man and His woman knowledgeable. God DID want Adam to have a knowledge (oida, understanding) of good and evil. God did NOT want Adam to experience evil (ginosko).
Pretty common sense really, God was being a good DAD.
Underneath all the translations, all the changes in language, all the opinions, and errors, that have crept into what we call the "Bible", still lies the undeniable rock-solid and unshakeable truth. You've just gotta want it.
ALL APPARENT CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE ARE EITHER AN ERROR IN TRANSLATION OR AN ERROR IN THE COMPREHENSION OF THE READER.
 
#33
Lastly, I think that, in a discourse such as this one, one should stay away from the flawed violence-from-religion argument. It's irrational and just plain wrong.
Starting with tower of Babel where we fear those not like us, to the building of the pyramids, to the inquisition and Crusades on to the christian colinization and purge of South America, Africa, Persia, Asia, North America, Australia and every other land where the sub-human aboriginal hordes needed to be "cleansed" and "shown the way". Examine the phrase "Onward Christian Soldier". Missionaries usually preceeded the military by only a few years.

Sure...since 1900 we have become quite adept at killing ourselves, but genocide is not something new...A lot of people have died in the last 100 years and you have statistics to back it up.

Sewing salt into fields, burning crops and poisoning wells may not be as effective as a bullet but the results are much more wide spread, it also makes it much more difficult to generate big impressive numbers since it has been going on for 5000 years with no end in sight.

Death and destruction from beliefs are not restricted only to violence. The simple fact that it was "unchristian" to puncture the boils of black plague victims in the 11th century which was known to lessen the illness. Who knows what exquisite torture waited for those who failed to comply.

The word Witch which is derived from "woman with wit (or education)"...one who practices natural medicine with the knowledge of herbs. "Only god can heal the sick and to prove it we will stone to death anyone who uses medicine". Sure only a few thousand were ever executed for witchcraft (which it is NOT) but how many countless others have died waiting for "divine intervention" that could have been helped by these wise women.

I'm having a blast with this...

Dude, last I checked, Eve is deader than a door nail. The idea is that there was no death before the 'first sin'. Sin brought death into the world.
Ok...so Adam and Eve were immortal, their prodgeny would have been immortal also...what is the carrying capacity of the Garden of Eden if no one ever died?

Sin didn't bring death to the world, birth did...I guess I have Eve to thank for allowing me to bonk the occasional salmon...otherwise it would be all C&R.


ALL APPARENT CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE ARE EITHER AN ERROR IN TRANSLATION OR AN ERROR IN THE COMPREHENSION OF THE READER.
Are you sure, where's my three sources of proof? I think you "believe" they are errors in translation and have faith that they are not errors in the book itself.
 

David Holmes

Formerly known as "capmblade"
#34
alpinetrout said:
That's a tough one just because of lack of accurate record keeping throughout history... After all who remembers the Armenian genocide? Oh wait, that one was religious, and served as an example that Hitler followed... People believe what they want to believe.
From http://www.arthurhu.com/index/genocide.htm

(about 30th on the list)
1.5M Armenian Genocide

Even if you find 100 other religiously-inspired genocides of that magnitude (you won't), you will just pass the 120 million killed by atheists.

In that light, let's change the saying to something more accurate:

More people have been killed by anti-religious governments than any other factor.

Oh who am I fooling. You are right, people will believe what they want to believe. Which is why this thread is a total waste of time. If you can't convince someone with hard numbers like this, they aren't going to be convinced.
 

Davy

Active Member
#35
chemically induced "miracles" ??

I think I believe all of you-

I have these nightly

Ok, back in Gods corner now, it was iffy there given the Skykomish didn't open up.

I believe in a high power which for me is water. My whole life, no matter what ,has involved fishing and water.

I did like the quote by someone about if there is no hell or heaven you simply die, but if there is and you are in the wrong fish camp on this issue you are screwed.

I was raised Protestant but what if God is Catholic, am I still screwed or do my drinks just cost more?

thanks for all these post's , great info

TL/ davy
 
#36
The more I read these post, the more I realize that it is not the religion but how certain people twist it. If it is truly the translations and interpretations that cause the problems, how on earth do you know you are following the right one? Someone's gotta be wrong...maybe it's you?

Having faith in the sunrise, sunset and a 20 inch cutthroat works for me...and if there is a god...it should work for her too.

I need to thank Bob for getting me going and making me the most hated member of this forum.

I still think blind faith is just that...blind.

Oh who am I fooling. You are right, people will believe what they want to believe. Which is why this thread is a total waste of time. If you can't convince someone with hard numbers like this, they aren't going to be convinced.
OK...I give in...death by religious persecution isn't all that bad.


I believe in a high power which for me is water. My whole life, no matter what ,has involved fishing and water.
Amen brother.
 

David Holmes

Formerly known as "capmblade"
#37
dmoocher said:
The more I read these post, the more I realize that it is not the religion but how certain people twist it. If it is truly the translations and interpretations that cause the problems, how on earth do you know you are following the right one? Someone's gotta be wrong...maybe it's you?
I sense insight creeping into this discussion. Someone should put a stop to it.

IMHO (and I have no numbers to back this up), "Personal Gain" is what kills millions of people constantly. Pol Pot, Mao Zedung, Kim Jong Il, et al. And of course they are not going to say "I killed those <x> million peasants to consolidate my power-base in the <ethnic-inserted-here>-dominated <region>." They are going to cloud the issue in an idea, like religion, or anti-religion, or "cultural revolution".
 

David Holmes

Formerly known as "capmblade"
#39
dmoocher said:
now one more time...why did we invade Iraq?
I'm not even going to touch that.

BTW, I'm pulling for you to get the "most-hated-member" award, since I think I had it before you. There's been a definite "cooling" to my posts ever since I pointed out that the Kyoto Protocol is a bunch of crap.
 
#40
BTW, I'm pulling for you to get the "most-hated-member" award, since I think I had it before you. There's been a definite "cooling" to my posts ever since I pointed out that the Kyoto Protocol is a bunch of crap
Thanks a bunch...now I get to start pissing off people I haven't met.
 
#41
There have been millions of people murdered using the excuse that it is a religious battle. It very rarely is, Mooch you gotta know that using religion the justify evil is a great way to avoid pesonal responsibility. I would have to say that ethnic cleansing, murder, torture etc is a result of the desire for personal power and monetary or territorial gain. (read $$$$$)
Do you really believe we are in Iraq because this is a war between the Christian God and the Muslim God???
Do you really believe that the Native Americans were wiped out to prove that the Christian God was more powerful.
Do you really believe that millions of Jews were in Nazi Germany killed because of religious conviction.
Do you really believe that the 100's of years of violence and bloodshed in Ireland is really the Catholics versus the Protestants.
Mooch if you really believe all that you are really not looking for truth you are looking for a scapegoat for all evil. You wont find it in real Christianity.
jesse clark
 
#42
Say mooch could you give me three reliable independant sources that prove the Bible was written by simple people curbing the pangs of starvation with opium. WOW what a statement!!
The people that wrote the Bible were some of the most intellegent of their time. There is absolutely no internal evidence that any of them were suffering from starvation and just because there were visions that were seen surely doesn't necessarily mean they in some kind of drug induced trance.
I like a good discussion too but it is this kind of inflammatory statement that takes a good discussion and turns it into a name calling rant.
jesse clark
 

mr trout

Trevor Hutton
#43
not to hijack the thread, but I thought since it is a religions discusion I would reccommend the movie Luther. It is about the Protestant reformation. It s a good movie wheter you believe or not. I never knew a lot about that period, and the movie seems to do a good job. well- keep up the discussion, its been interesting to watch from the sidelines!
 
#44
In ancient times cannabis was widely cultivated throughout the Middle East. It grows like a weed and provides nourishing seed, which is also a good source of fibre used to make rope.

People certainly knew of its pleasurable effects; it would have been impossible to harvest it without becoming ecstatic as the drug would be absorbed through the skin. And as long ago as 1935 a Slovakian linguist identified the plant known as "fragrant cane" in the English Bible as flowering cannabis, a link since accepted by some Jewish authorities.

Ancient people were fascinated by herbs and their healing powers and knew much more about them than we do; at least about mixing herbs to release their potency.

Ancient wines were always fortified, like the "strong wine" of the Old Testament, with herbal additives: opium, datura, belladonna, mandrake and henbane. Common incenses, such as myrrh, ambergris and frankincense are psychotropic; the easy availability and long tradition of cannabis use would have seen it included in the mixtures. Modern medicine has looked into using cannabis as a pain reliever and in treating multiple sclerosis. It may well be that ancient people knew, or believed, that cannabis had healing power.

Much of their knowledge, passed down through an oral tradition, has been lost and to some extent it is the modern prejudice against drugs that has stopped us looking for it. Revulsion against drugs and the hippie culture even led to the term "entheogen" being coined to describe a psychotropic substance used in religious rituals.

Entheogen comes from the Greek entheos (meaning "god-inspired within") and the word is now commonly employed in English and European languages to discuss sacramental foods used by shamans (mystic or visionary priests) to achieve spiritual ecstasy.

So what of the early Christians? At the time they were evolving, they had to compete with other religions of the Roman empire. The strongest of those was Mithraism, imported from Persia, which exists today as Zoroastrianism.

Its sacrament, Haoma, was virtually identical to what we know of soma, in Brahmanism. Worshipped as a god, soma was a strange plant without leaves or roots that needed little light and induced religious ecstasy. It was most likely amanita muscaria: a magic mushroom. In ancient Rome sharing the Haoma cemented the bond of brotherhood of emperors, bureaucrats and soldiers. Pagan Greek celebrations at the sanctuary of Eleusis, meanwhile, included a visionary experience for a crowd of 1,000 people, from drinking a potion made from a fungus that grows on wheat and produces an effect similar to LSD.

So, did Jesus use cannabis? I think so. The word Christ does mean "the anointed one" and Bennett contends that Christ was anointed with chrism, a cannabis-based oil, that caused his spiritual visions. The ancient recipe for this oil, recorded in Exodus, included over 9lb of flowering cannabis tops (known as kaneh-bosem in Hebrew), extracted into a hin (about 11 pints) of olive oil, with a variety of other herbs and spices. The mixture was used in anointing and fumigations that, significantly, allowed the priests and prophets to see and speak with Yahweh.

Residues of cannabis, moreover, have been detected in vessels from Judea and Egypt in a context indicating its medicinal, as well as visionary, use. Jesus is described by the apostle Mark as casting out demons and healing by the use of this holy chrism. Earlier, from the time of Moses until the later prophet Samuel, holy anointing oil was used by the shamanic Levite priesthood to receive the "revelations of the Lord". The chosen ones were drenched in this potent cannabis oil.

Early Christian documents found in Eygpt, thought to be a more accurate record than the New Testament, portray Jesus as an ecstatic rebel sage who preached enlightenment through rituals involving magical plants. Indeed, Bennett goes so far as to say that Jesus was probably not born the messiah but acquired the title when he was anointed with cannabis oil by John the Baptist. The baptism in the Jordan was probably to wash away the oil after it had done its work. The early Christians fought hard for followers in the ancient world, recognising the similarity of their own "foreign" god and his eucharistic meal to the Greek gods. Various sects and even the elite in what would eventually become the Roman Catholic church probably used the full range of available entheogens for baptism, ordination and the eucharistic meal.

What we now call the host might have been more than just bread. There are indications that early Christians shared magic mushrooms - and the spiritual visions and ecstasies they occasioned - as their eucharistic meal. A 4th-century mosaic discovered at a basilica in Aquileia in northern Italy depicts baskets of mushrooms. Why? This wasn't a restaurant. Could the "red mushrooms" have been the ritual meal?

Eating bread and sharing wine together was, and remains, at the heart of the Christian ritual. We'll never know exactly what Jesus and his disciples consumed at the Last Supper, but as they believed they were drinking the blood of Christ we must accept it was - if not actually hallucinatory - at least fortified by God.
Carl Ruck is professor of classics at Boston University


Jesse...I'll surf for 2 more.
 

chadk

Be the guide...
#45
dmoocher - you gotta give the actual link to be valid... ;)

I love this part:

"did Jesus use cannabis"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: