2 Fly Pattern Top-water Set-up?

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by Roger Stephens, Sep 11, 2008.

  1. Roger Stephens

    Roger Stephens Active Member

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    For the past 1 1/2 months the top-water action for adult coho and large sea-run cutthroat has been spectacular skating a floating sand lance pattern. Many years ago I used a two fly sinking line set-up to fish for resident coho in the winter time. Occasionally I would land 2 fish at once but leader/fly tangling at times became a frustrating issue. So I quit using a 2 fly pattern set-up when fishing on Puget Sound.

    I am a glutton for leader/fly tangling frustration since I am going to try a set-up using two floating patterns. It is all about the challenge and excitment of having fish simultaneously chase each pattern with the hope of two hook-ups at once. What a thrill that would be!

    Below are my thoughts and plan on using a 2 floating pattern set-up:

    1. I tie my own leaders(Maximum chameleon) so I'll put a small dab of aqua seal or other similar material to coat the leader knots to eliminate pig-tails.

    2. I will use 3 ft. of Maximum chameleon for the leader tippet and will start with 10 lb. and go up to 20 lb. if more stiffness is needed. Adult coho and sea-run cutthroat are not leader shy so using chameleon should be fine.

    3. Open casting loop.

    4. Start with casts of 60 ft or so. If there are no leader tangling issues, longer casts would be in order.

    5. 18" chameleon leader length between front and back fly patterns.

    6. Will use Miyawaki Beach Popper(tied as tube pattern) and F.T.(floating tube) sand lance pattern. Will probably use Miyawaki Beach Popper as front pattern.

    7. Have a couple of spare leader set-ups readily to use if there is a major tangle.

    I am going to play around with a 2 floating fly pattern set-up for the next couple of weeks and hopefully can figure out how to pretty much eliminate leader/fly tangling. It would be a pretty exciting way to fish on Puget Sound.

    Any thoughts/ideas would be appreciated!

    Roger
     
  2. Steven Green

    Steven Green Hood Canal Pirate

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    I'm very interested to see how you do with this. Double the action on dries would be great. Perhaps not two fish at once but more strikes because of extra movement from the second fly?
     
  3. Ron Crawford

    Ron Crawford ===

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    Have you ever tried a floater with a sub surface pattern tried on behind it? Hey it works great for trout in freshwater, why not try it in the salt?
     
  4. Ringlee

    Ringlee Doesn't care how you fish Moderator Staff Member

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    I have been thinking about that lately. Probably going to try it out. I know fish come up and look at the top water fly and don't ever show themselves. They will probably take the subsurface.
     
  5. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Back east my father in law fishes a dropper all the time. He says it stirs them up for more strikes. I have enough trouble casting a single fly, now add another a foot or so behind, I see lots of tangles in my future.
     
  6. Les Johnson

    Les Johnson Les Johnson

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    I don't know how a two-fly floating rig might work. Leland's Popper fished solo sure is effective at times though for me and will be again I'm sure when Carol and I head for Vancouver Island in a couple of weeks.
    Regarding a dropper (shades of the Yakima River!) I would want to be sure that the dropper wasn't something that the cutthroat would inhale too deeply. It could be deadly. I'm thinking that perhaps we are going to have to add "single barbless fly only" into the marine regulations just to keep folks from getting wild-eyed on increasing success at the risk of putting cutthroat into peril just for the sake of catching more of them. Remember, this is a unique and high quality fishery that would be very easy to overfish. After forty years of concerned sportfishers protecting them, our sea-run cutthroats, wild naturally aggressive trout, are just barely holding their own. In this regard it sure seems to me that a sinngle barbless fly is the sporting way to catch sea-run cutthroat. Everyone posting on this thread would be well served to think more about protecting this precious resource and less about more productive ways to exploit it.
    My 2-cents,
    Les Johnson
     
  7. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    iagree:ray1:

    There always seem to be those that will exploit every conceivable advantage in order to "win" at whatever game is being played. I have seen this in every sport or "game" that I have ever been involved in from grade school sports to competitive pistol shooting to racing cars & motorcyles to ping pong....better is generally equated to bigger, faster, more (as in "money"), with little regard for the basic esthetic qualities of the experience itself and appears to be a basic, fundamental quality of human nature.
    "My dog's bigger'n yer dog"...."my dad makes more money'n yer dad"...."I gots uh Hemi in mine"...."I catch more fish'n you"...."ya but mine's bigger'n your'n", and on-and on-and-on!!

    Mebbe we should just do like the Halibut fishermen do in Alaska and put 500-1000 hooks on a single line and haul in as many fish as possible on one line - now wouldn't that be a blast? We could even have a "tournament" to see who could haul in the most SRC's or Coho or Chinook or Steelhead on a single line!! Of course at some point, "fly casting" such monstrosities would become problematic and we'd hafta use "digital/air/hydraulic launching mechanisms" -- maybe even with remote controlled joy stick systems from our couch in the lving room at home.....hey now - there's an idea!!!:eek::(:eek:

    Fortunately, by the time all this transpires, I will be long gone from this here planet and in the "Happier Hunting/Fishing Grounds!!":rolleyes:

    Jc...:ray1: :beer2:
     
  8. D3Smartie

    D3Smartie Active Member

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    I have tried fishing with two flies in the salt. i actually think i spent less time effectively fishing when i tried it as opposed to just fishing one fly.
     
  9. Dale Dennis

    Dale Dennis Formally Double-D

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    Roger,
    I admire your tenacity for experimenting and admittedly have given it the same thought but in all do respect I will have to agree with Les, and this is not aimed at you. With our other native fisheries leaning toward extinction the lesser the impact we have on the last wild/native anadromous sport fish we have the better. I’m not saying one person alone will impact them but to all readers on this forum, it just may not be a good thing for all of us as Searun fanatics to do the same. It’s a good feeling to know that we still have a viable and some what healthy searun fishery that we can enjoy and hopefully our progeny will enjoy as well.
    Don’t stop your reports Roger, to me you have valuable and great information to share.
     
  10. DimeBrite

    DimeBrite MA-9 Beach Stalker

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    In case the tandem fly trick doesn't work out I'll happily volunteer to provide the second fly cast from Roger's boat.
     
  11. Smalma

    Smalma Active Member

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    Roger -
    I have experimented some with double fly rigs for streamer type fishing (though mostly in the rivers and not the salt). For rigging I think you are on the right track with maxima for leader - its stiffness helps with preventing the tangles. I had the best luck in keeping the "messes" to a minimum by tying the first fly directly to the leader and attaching the trailing fly by tying it to the bend of the first fly. If you are constructing your own leaders I would definitely recommend that you use a heavier/longer butt section tha normal on your taper leaders to aid in turning things over. Also found that trying to complete the cast above the water (in effect "aiming" a foot or so above the surface) helps things to straighten out

    I suspect that you will have problems if you tie the popper up front. With the tendency for fish to strike that sort of fly short you will find that you will foul hook fish with the trailing fly. By far the best set up was to have a smaller fly up front with a larger "chasing" pattern following. It also help to strip strike and to train myself to delay any strikes until I felt a "tug" rather than on the splash, swirl, or flash.

    Like the others suggested I ultimately came to the conclusion that two flies in this application was not worth the time and bother. While there is special circumstance or two where I might consider using a two fly rig the majority of the time I found it better (more enjoyable) to concentrate on fishing one fly well. While it is always nice to have an additional trick or two in ones arsenal the vast majority of the time the second fly did not result in more fish to hand (in part to lost fishing time). One final observation when the adult coho reach the stage that they start the rolling/twisitng game when hooked the double fly can result in a real mess though it can be pretty exciting when there is a double hook up of coho adults though it usually is short lived.

    Like Double-D I'll be interested in your results.

    Double-D -
    I hear you about reducing potential impacts on the beloved cutthroat. In that line if you think such adding handing impacts could be significant you might consider stop fishing for them in the salt. While data specific to hooking mortality on cutts in the salt is lacking it is clear with other salmonids that handling mortality in the salt is typically higher than in freshwater. Thus for a given number of fish handled you are likely to have a lower impact by doing your fishing in freshwater.

    Personally I don't see that using two flies or fishing in the salt are that significant of factors in limiting our cutthroat populations but if one does think so then it might be appropriate to that standard of concern equitably.

    Tight lines
    Curt
     
  12. Les Johnson

    Les Johnson Les Johnson

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    I don't believe that flyfishermen are really out to deliberately decimate our wild coastal cutthroat populations. I do believe however that they really do not understand just how hard individuals, conservation organizations and sportfishing clubs have fought for the well-being of our coastal cutthroat. I became involved in the mid-1970s and there were a lot of conservation minded Washington anglers who were already veteran stewards of the cutthroat trout and cutthroat trout fishery at that time.
    In large measure the only stewards of the wild coastal cutthroat have been the sportsmen of Washington; far more than the Department of Fish and Wildlife. Without these dedicated people we would probably have lost the coastal cutthroat decades ago. So, I say to everyone who casts for coastal cutthroat -- in the salt or fresh water -- if this great fish continues to survive and hopefully thrive, it will be because of you; because of all of us. This should be the primary thought in your mind every time you catch and release one. Remember, it is more than simply catching fish; it is about sustaining the fish and the fishing for decades to come. So, whether we save them or lose them, either way, the future of the coastal cutthroat is in our hands.
    Good Fishing,
    Les Johnson
     
  13. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    iagree again....and I will try real hard to leave out the sarcasm this time...:)!

    I agree that "fly fishermen are not really out to deliberately decimate our wild coastal cutthroat populations." Or any other fish populations either for that matter!

    I do know however that there are competing interests that couldn't care less about SRC's only because there is no "profit" commercially but who will continue to rape the oceans and the rest of the planet for profit until there is nothing left – for anyone. And then the “finger-pointing” will begin…..

    Some realities as I see them:
    Fly and gear fishermen only have “influence” in the retail marketplace such as Joe’s, Cabela’s, Sportco, Sportsmens Warehouse, various flyshops, WallyMart (groan) etc.. Commercial fishermen have influence in State Capitols like Olympia or Washington DC only because of the enormous wealth to be had by scrapping every last bit of life from the oceans (or rivers). “Last one To Get The Last Fish, wins, haha, neenerneenerneener!” Ooops, I was gonna leave out the sarcasm, wasn’t I?….oh well, maybe next time…..!

    Or, as the “liberals” would say, “Well, it’s all the fault of the consumer, if there wasn’t such a “demand” there’d be more fishies in da ocean!” (Oops, there I go again….)

    Fly & gear fishermen support the sports fishing industry and ALL Conservation efforts in their entirety – commercial interests = zero, nada, zip, zilch.

    Can you imagine how long it would take for ALL remaining species of fish, crab, oyster, lobster to rebound to pre-1970 levels if ALL commercial netting stopped today - everywhere? If ALL fish had to be caught on fly, lure and line only?

    I’d estimate maybe 10 years of an “Absolute & Total Moratorium” on all Commercial Net Fishing in ALL oceans of the world.…of course we ALL know that ain’t gonna happen, don’t we? It just wouldn’t be “politically correct” or economically feasible in any case would it?

    Most will say, “That’s just waaay too extreme….ain’t gonna happen!” And they’re right, it is extreme AND it ain’t gonna happen!!

    But I just can’t help wondering what everybody’s going to say when there just aren’t any more fish to be caught – by anyone without a 40 mile wide trawlers net in the mid-Pacific or mid-Atlantic oceans…”Doomsday Prophecies” say you?....yep, says I… unequivocally!!

    And God Bless the SRC's that are left....

    Jus’ my 2.5 cents worth….

    Jc (…and damned glad I won’t be around to see it!)
     
  14. Roger Stephens

    Roger Stephens Active Member

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    Appreciate the feedback and thoughtful responses! A single floating fly pattern set-up has worked well for me so I'm going to forget about using a 2 floating fly pattern set-up plus I won't have to deal with leader/fly tangle issues.

    DimeBrite:

    You are welcome to cast the second fly pattern from my boat but you will need to provide me with a dozen "killer/secret" saltwater patterns;).

    Roger
     
  15. Steve Rohrbach

    Steve Rohrbach Puget Sound Fly Fisher

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    The last time I fished with Roger, I witnessed the start of this two fly fascination. He had tied his leader to the fly line with a nail knot. He was fishing his topwater sand lance and several times the fish came up and attacked the nail knot! I suggested that Roger would be well served to tie a nail knot floating tube. Roger, you will have the best of both worlds, one fly and the attracting power of your nail knot. Good fishing buddy!
     
  16. Mr.E

    Mr.E He called me an Elitist ?? LOL ..what a moron

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    I have an un-scientific theory about that because I have on many occasions had the same thing happen to me.

    I think the fish that go after the knot think it is a food source. Being competitive behavior or instinct(or what ever you call it), the fish thinks it is stealing the meal from the smaller fish(Fly ).

    I've also experimented with a 2 fly set up because of that. Although now I coat my knot with "UV Knot Sence", now I have less drag and wake(do to a bear knot) that the fish goes for my fly now.
     
  17. floatinghat

    floatinghat Member

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    Roger, I have to ask what general area are you finding "action for adult coho and large sea-run cutthroat has been spectacular"? Not looking for a rock, just that I have not heard of anyone having much more than spotty success, surface, shallow, or deep?

    Sounds like you are fishing from a boat are you bucktailing to find fish and then casting too them?
     
  18. Don Freeman

    Don Freeman Free Man

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    The only input I'd have is on the leader formula. I was having trouble turning over the wind resistant surface flies, so built a new set up that worked well yesterday. I used 3 ft 30# chameleon for the butt section for the stiffness, then down to 2' 20# Maxima, green or clear, didn't matter, 2' of 15#, 2' 12#, then 18" of 2x fluorocarbon. The final tippet disappears, as it sinks a little. I've gone to a double uni knot over blood knots, as I have trouble flattening the material when I connect mono to fluoro. Each knot is coated with Loon UV Knot Sense. I can shape the beads of "glue" in the basement, then go outside in the sun, and all the connections harden immediatley.

    I'm sure there's room for fine tuning the leader formula, but this worked better than what I've been using.
     
  19. Roger Stephens

    Roger Stephens Active Member

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    Floatinghat:

    I was blessed to be able to retire almost 20 years ago. Since then I have fly fished almost exclusively year-around on Puget Sound and have "paid my dues". There are hundreds and hundreds of good fishing spots on Puget Sound. The key to find these locations is to understand tidal current and bottom structure/type situations which are conducive to hold/attract sea-run cutthroat and salmon plus the yearly cycle of food sources for these fish.

    When I first started fly fishing on Puget Sound, I would sometimes troll to locate fish. Now, I don't troll since I enjoy so much the rhythmic motion of fly casting and know the right conditions that normally will hold fish.

    Roger
     
  20. floatinghat

    floatinghat Member

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    Roger, I understand the paying the dues, I've been there with steelhead. I was fortunate enough to learn a couple of rivers well enough to expect a couple of sold grabs summer or winter. That's why I wasn't asking for specifics more a general area 9, 10 or 11 but I understand your reluctance.
     

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