Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by delawarean, Jan 15, 2009.

  1. delawarean

    delawarean New Member

    I’ve been fly fishing in saltwater (stripers, Blues, sea trout, etc.), for well over 45 years with single handle rods from 7 to 10 weight. Presently, I decided to try 2 handed overhead rods to achieve more distance only when needed. I just bought the new 11 foot, 8 weight, Deer Creek TFO 2 handed rod. (Mfg Recommendations - 400-600 gr. or 7-10 weight lines)
    Three Questions-
    a) Suggest a manufacturer’s line for maximum casting distance in 3’ deep flats, (light winds), an Intermediate line.
    b) Suggest another manufacturer’s line for fly fishing from a jetty into 25’ of water depth, (light winds), a medium sinking line.
    c) Finally, suggest a line for fishing the heavy surf, (moderate winds), probably medium sink line.
    I assume that fly lines would either be heads with looped running lines, integrated line heads, or Weight Forward lines.
    A tough question, but would really appreciate recommendations from experienced 2 handed overhead anglers. Much thanks!
  2. PEI.Salar.Salmo

    PEI.Salar.Salmo New Member

    . sorry bad post
  3. Itchy Dog

    Itchy Dog Some call me Kirk Werner

    I'm also particularly interested in this thread, as that exact rod is one I'm looking at.
    Wondering if my Rio Versitip WF8F line for my single-handed 8 wt would be too light.
    Have heard that many overline their two switch rods.
  4. doublespey

    doublespey Steelhead-a-holic

    Using two hands, I've found (at least for me ;) ) it's always better to err on the side of heavier line weight. Without the benefit of double-hauling, you're relying on the longer lever of the two-handed rod to build line speed. Since it's longer, the 'release' of the rod will also take longer and occur over a larger range of the blank's length. So load it up and take full advantage of the longer lever you have in your two hands.

    I've tried quite a few of the Deer Creek models and have found that going up 3 line wts is about standard for two-handed overhead work. In some cases (like my 6wt with Airflo 40+ 9wt) it might even be a bit on the lightweight end of things. For the 8wt, I'd think a standard 11wt would be a good starting point.

    And, as someone else suggested, the speypages site has a # of dedicated two-hand overhead casters. Bob has also posted recommendations for each rod, both overhead and spey casting.

    Have Fun!

  5. Matt Burke

    Matt Burke Active Member

    I’m a bit hesitant about providing any info on overheading. Six years ago when I started doing it, there was no one to ask that question. Since then, every time I tried to provide any info from my personal experience teaching myself the method, I have been shit on by those “in the know.” Needless to say, I have kept at it. It is all I do now. A majority of that on the river with some in the salt.

    You might as well accept the fact today, that you are going to break a lot of rods. When using the sinking heads for deeper water, you may start wishing the rod was a little longer than 12 feet. It can be difficult to get it back out of the water. I prefer a 14 to 15 foot rod. This can be very important if the beach behind you rises quickly from the water or many civilians walk behind you when casting.

    As far as heads go, I’m not sure what is going on any more because I cut and splice my own. Although recently I have gravitated toward the heavier Skagits or AFS heads from CND and make my own tips out of T-14. I did buy 45 foot heads from overseas for awhile and cut them up in the varying types of sink, but again, it’s a pain in the ass to get out of the water. Intermediate line at 800 grains in thirty foot sections doesn’t exist. Well, it may by now, I don’t know. For me it easier to build a head out of the tons of scrape line that I have than to buy one.

    I prefer 27 to 30 foot heads with flat mono or mono running line. Many will tell you the standard is 3 to 3.5 times the length of the rod. Hey, whatever works for you is great. I think I’ll leave it at that. I’m probably going to be shit on just for this little bit of info.

    I didn't know there were so many overheaders over at speypages now. Having been shunned by my peers early in my career, I pretty much shut up and isolated myself. I can only assume my advice is worthless to you.
  6. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    aw cmon Matt, it's not so bad anymore.
    there's much greater tolerance in society today for alternative lifestyles:rofl:
    just screwin' wif you pal. You know I really like rebels.

    actually, seems like the East Coast is having a bit of a renaissance in overheading with two handers, and guys are dialing in their line systems to conditions just like in
    delawarean's post...thing is out here in PNW, the fraternity of DH surfcasters is pretty small and we don't hear from them much.

    the whole uplining thing...well, the average DH rod is rated by a different AFTMA scale than the SH...so going up two or even three line weights actually puts you in the "grain window" of the rod.
    eg, my 12'6" 5/6 Deer Creek has a window of 350-500 grains, and it casts a SH 8wt DT very gracefully.
    so if you can get the grain window of the rod, find out line grainage, and make a match, you can make the rod sing. In many cases for overheading, guys will stay at the bottom end of the grain window of the rod because Spey casts require a lot more weight and the grain window will reflect ideal weights for spey casting, so that's something to look at.

    hope this helps
  7. Matt Burke

    Matt Burke Active Member

    Oh great Spaz. You were the only friend I had on my profile page.
  8. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Hey Matt,
    you're the dude. You're my bud. just having some fun.
    I still shiver when I think about that Meiser that exploded on you.
    I give you a lot of credit for sticking to your guns and playing your way.
    PS I think you gave the guy some good advice and I'm trying to back you up here:thumb:
    regards/respect/props, Bob
  9. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    oh yeah, one other thing I forgot--
    there's a huge component of overheading in the Scandinavian two-handed tradition...many of the Scando shooting head systems are intended to do both touch-n-go casting and overheading really well, because I guess many of their rivers allow that to be done, you know, low grassy banks without willows and crap like we have out here. must be nice...
  10. doublespey

    doublespey Steelhead-a-holic

    Part of the reason I quit posting offering recommendations to people starting out in any area was because of the "Shit Upon" factor.

    Matt - you've spent quite a bit of time working with overhead two-handed rods, and what you're developed works for you. That's all anyone can offer. Doesn't mean it will work for EVERYONE, and that's not the point. It's possible to have a different opinion without crapping on what someone else has shared.

    Delawarean - these are all just suggestions on where to get started. I don't fish from a jetty - most of my beach fishing is floating line (usually popper) with an occasional intermediate line for clousers and subsurface stuff from the beach.

    The same principals apply - find a line that loads the rod and is a confortable length to throw with the rod you're using. For 11' I find 35' an optimal length, others may prefer longer or shorter.

    My current favorite for intermediate or floating is the Airflo 40plus lines, but I've also heard that Rio's Outbound Shorts work great with the 11' switch rods.

    Have at it,

  11. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Brian, Matt-
    don't want to be a hijacker, just let me get this out of the way...
    I think you guys' advice is ON, and whatever shyting upon happened in the past will likely taper off and go away...seriously, what with surf and switch and Modern Scando, OH w/DH is part of the wave now, gone mainstream and likely to stay that way.
    So really, pat yourselves on the back! It's not easy setting future trends and morphing the sport, but you did it.
    Don't mistake my (what I thought was funny between friends) comment to be a diss...far from it, brothers. I kind of envy you for surfing at the front of the curl:thumb:
  12. peter-s-c

    peter-s-c New Member

    Two types that I use:

    Integrated running line types -- Airflo Forty + Beach Lines in intermediate and Type 9. The 9/10 is about 440 grains and the 11/12 is about 530.

    Shooting heads -- Guideline Power DH tapers in two flavours, cut-to-suit and Ready-to-Go that are pre-looped. The pre-loop are available from floater down to S6/7. Use either the 8/9 or 9/10 for roughly the same weight range as the Forty + Beach lines.

    Other choices:

    Rio Outbound lines.

    Airflo Overhead ST taper shooting heads.

    As Bob mentioned, Scandinavian system anglers cast overhead with the same facility as they Spey cast. Overhead casting for salmon with DH rods in the UK dates back to the 1800s which is the reason why they resist the term "Spey rod" as they expect a DH rod to Spey or overhead cast equally well.

    PM or email me if you need more info on the Guideline heads.

    You'll appreciate this photo - my son with nice striper:

    Attached Files:

  13. ak_powder_monkey

    ak_powder_monkey Proud to Be Alaskan

    I'd sugust a rio outbound
  14. Matt Burke

    Matt Burke Active Member

    It's good Bob. No worries.
  15. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    you crack me up man
    you had me!
    BTW, I'm hoping to get up your way in Mar, maybe we can fish.
    still working eves?
  16. Matt Burke

    Matt Burke Active Member

    Yes. Dude, the only thing I am ever serious about is fly fishing. Nothing else matters except my kids on the weekends.
  17. delawarean

    delawarean New Member

    Hey Guys,- appreciate the news on lines. As to the rod length, I am a bit old, and with some shoulder pain, I need some 2 handed ease once & a while casting from jetties and ocean surf. This is why I selected the 11' rod,- NOT for very long distance. Besides overhd casting, its also quite good as a single handed casting rod. Just for a ref, I tried a Dp finder line of 600 Gr and it flew over 95 ft +into the backing. Another dry land cast with a Cortland 12 wt ST line with a 30' head & braided mono run line shot pretty good too. Since the weather here is now around 7 degrees, fishing has almost died from the beach. I hope to try these lines mentioned in the Spring. Thanks, again.

    SPEYBUM Member

    Lines For Overhead casting with Two Handed Fly Rod.
    I have dabbled a little with overhead casting with a Two Handed Fly Rod.
    I started with floating line looking for balance between Speycasting and overhead casting.
    Had some success but not a lot until I spent a couple days with Steve Rajeff and picked his brain a little. The air drag coefficient for most sinking lines are much lower.
    Then came the length.
    Now long did I need?
    I came up with three-rod lengths including leader and tippet.
    What I was looking for is turn over at max distance with a big of fly as the rod will handle.