Nisqually eats another boat

#32
On wednesday July 11 2007, at Neah Bay, one hand troller with 4 tribal fishermen onboard brought in over 300 coho with adipose fins intact. These 300 wild fish are now dead.
All 300 fish were brought to the boat alive, bonked, and iced. They were part of a large school of wild coho that had been milling around near Blue Dot for 3 days. The ratio of wild to clipped fish in this school was over 20:1. They were wild, everybody knew it. They were targeted and killed.
Who should we blame?
This harvest is continuing this very moment. If you don't believe it, go out there and see for yourself.

JonB
 

James Mello

Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"
#33
On wednesday July 11 2007, at Neah Bay, one hand troller with 4 tribal fishermen onboard brought in over 300 coho with adipose fins intact. These 300 wild fish are now dead.
All 300 fish were brought to the boat alive, bonked, and iced. They were part of a large school of wild coho that had been milling around near Blue Dot for 3 days. The ratio of wild to clipped fish in this school was over 20:1. They were wild, everybody knew it. They were targeted and killed.
Who should we blame?
This harvest is continuing this very moment. If you don't believe it, go out there and see for yourself.

JonB
Okay Jon, let's play this game. How do you stop the NA from netting? Ideas? Suggestions? No one doubts that it's hard on the fish, but seriously, if you want to stop it, how do you propose that it happens?

-- Cheers
-- James
 
#34
Nations within Nations.
One Nation under God!!! We all should play by the same rules in a modern world. Not special rules for special people.
I'm not just talking about fishing.
What is a minority? #3 "a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment"
Just my .02
 
#35
My neighbor is going to take a dump in his shorts when my Irish butt shows up in his garden with a 15 ton diesel potato harvester. :rofl:

Serious question, Were the NA's throwing gillnets from diesel boats when the stevens treaty was signed?
 

James Mello

Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"
#36
Nations within Nations.
One Nation under God!!! We all should play by the same rules in a modern world. Not special rules for special people.
I'm not just talking about fishing.
What is a minority? #3 "a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment"
Just my .02
I agree with the statement, but still how does one go about changing the reality? Ideas?
 

James Mello

Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"
#37
My neighbor is going to take a dump in his shorts when my Irish butt shows up in his garden with a 15 ton diesel potato harvester. :rofl:

Serious question, Were the NA's throwing gillnets from diesel boats when the stevens treaty was signed?
No, but set nets can be place just as easily with paddled boats. If you *really* want to see some great ways of catching salmon, take a look at an artificial weir with a fish paddle. They had the technology to do it, and it is 100% effective at removing fish from the river....

Regardless, how does one still change the law that is in effect? The opinions are fine, but to change it, one must still have a strong argument, not just opinion...
 
#38
No, but set nets can be place just as easily with paddled boats. If you *really* want to see some great ways of catching salmon, take a look at an artificial weir with a fish paddle. They had the technology to do it, and it is 100% effective at removing fish from the river....

Regardless, how does one still change the law that is in effect? The opinions are fine, but to change it, one must still have a strong argument, not just opinion...
Native americans are only a minority by population. It's pretty obvious who has the cash in pocket by simply looking at our politicans voting records. You want to make changes, start buying politicans. It is as simple as that. Of course, some things are eaiser said than done.
 

James Mello

Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"
#39
Native americans are only a minority by population. It's pretty obvious who has the cash in pocket by simply looking at our politicans voting records. You want to make changes, start buying politicans. It is as simple as that. Of course, some things are eaiser said than done.
It's not a legalative issue, it's a judicial one..... And yes, some things are easier said than done. I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but I don't think the legilasture can do much. They *could* go ahead and make a new law, but the upshot would be the tribes would contest it in court, and more than likely the new law will be shot down....
 
#40
Judges need to get elected as well, don't they? :confused: come up with 50 mil in cold cash make a Michael Mooreesque documentardry about Indian genocide of wild steelhead to fund tax free gambling or something. Launch this with an overwhelming ad campaign. Maybe one showing a father and his kid getting skunked at the ol fishing hole. This will swing the popular opinion against boldt. Grease a few politicans to bring it up to a vote. Grease the chain of judges that the issue will fly on and pay for the best attornys money can buy to back you up.

Sound pretty far fetched?

The Tribes, Lumber industry, Mining industry....... are already pros at this game and will be playing the same thing against you. How deep are our pockets? Just deep enough to buy a wood framed house for our wives wearing a gold wedding band who we occasionally take to the casino for a few hands of blackjack on the weekends. :beathead:
 

James Mello

Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"
#41
Judges need to get elected as well, don't they? :confused: come up with 50 mil in cold cash make a Michael Mooreesque documentardry about Indian genocide of wild steelhead to fund tax free gambling or something. Launch this with an overwhelming ad campaign. Maybe one showing a father and his kid getting skunked at the ol fishing hole. This will swing the popular opinion against boldt. Grease a few politicans to bring it up to a vote. Grease the chain of judges that the issue will fly on and pay for the best attornys money can buy to back you up.

Sound pretty far fetched?

The Tribes, Lumber industry, Mining industry....... are already pros at this game and will be playing the same thing against you. How deep are our pockets? Just deep enough to buy a wood framed house for our wives wearing a gold wedding band who we occasionally take to the casino for a few hands of blackjack on the weekends. :beathead:
Okay, so let's say you do get a local district judge to buy in. Next comes the appeal.... We could then get the next judge up the chain, but ultimately it terminates at judges we don't elect, but are appointed..... Also, where would this money come from? There isn't an organization with enough $$ or clout to pull this off....

Finally, in order for this to happen, you'd also have to come up with a reasonable challenge to the ruling. Even judges that are bought can't ignore case precident or they will come under the scrutiny of their peers. Lots of challenges have been made, all of them have lost. You will then need to find a new angle that hasn't be judged yet... Impossible? No... Easy? No....

-- Cheers
-- James
 

Salmo_g

Well-Known Member
#42
Unfortunately, a thread about some trees fallen in the Nisqually River has taken a turn to the issue of treaty Indian fishing and fishing rights. I think prior threads pretty well capture the issue. Some of the points of summary are:
1. Treaty rights are the law of the land, upheld in Federal District Court, the 9th Circuit, and the U.S. Supreme Court. None of the judges or justices are elected. All are appointed by the president and confirmed by the U.S. Senate.
2. Whether tribes had diesel boats, nylon nets, or any other technological devices at treaty times is irrelevant.
3. The treaty law applies to fishing in usual & accustomed areas, which pretty much includes any and every water body in the case area, and does not exclude hatchery or introduced fish.
4. Treaties can legally be modified by Congress without the tribes consent. Slade Gorton tried that in the U.S. Senate in the early 1980s and got no where.
5. It turns out that it's a bit more complicated than buying off some judges and Congressmen, but with an infinite budget, it's hypothetically possible; otherwise it's a ranter's fantasy.
6. As much as some people believe the demise and decline of various stocks of fish is due to Indian fishing, not one, repeat, NOT ONE instance has ever been verified. And just the opposite is verified, that is, white society has extirpated over a hundred salmon and steelhead stocks on the west coast.

You don't have to like it, but the above, except #5, are the facts.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.
 
#43
1. Treaty rights are the law of the land, upheld in Federal District Court, the 9th Circuit, and the U.S. Supreme Court. None of the judges or justices are elected. All are appointed by the president and confirmed by the U.S. Senate.
Which means you'd need Haliburton Type money.
 

gt

Active Member
#44
by impacting the major source of income for current day native americans, casinos, perhaps a message can be sent. boycott their businesses and let'um know why.

boldt is not going to be changed until or unless it goes back into court. my only issue with this situation is how anyone, native americans included, thinks that by decimating an ESA stock their short and long term best interests are being served. the useful, and in mind necessary change, is a simple one, anyone fishing must abide by the same set of rules, no matter your origin.