Up one line? Two?

Stonefish

Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater
#91
JC,
Coho fishing is a numbers game. The more casts you make, the more likely you are to get into fish. Not every cast will be perfect. No big deal, try to make the next one better. If you spend most of your beach time concentrating on your casting, your fishing is likely to suffer.
Remember, there are a ton of coho caught each year within 60 feet of the beach.

I wish I had a buck for every cast I knew was going to suck, but I still shoot it anyway. I'd be a rich dude by now. :D
On to the next cast..........

Jake,
Don't cut your line back after only one trip with it. No reason to mess with a new line before you get it dialed in for your rod. You mentioned it feels slightly heavy, it should.
 
#92
Don really knows his stuff. He loves, loves, loves the art and science of casting and teaching it to people; each time I listen to him he changes up his lesson plan and approach, always for the better. Some folks don't always appreciate his ultra serious drill sargent teaching approach, but to him fly casting is serious stuff. I'm glad you found his seminar informative.

I haven't seen you cast or know of your casting skill level, but you mentioned once before that you are self-taught. There's nothing wrong with being a self-taught caster, but often a person schooled in this manner will miss or not be aware of some fundamentals that are important. That's awesome that it appears you want to advance your casting skills. Good for you (as long as you actually listen, learn, and apply some of those lessons - grin).
you mentioned once before that you are self-taught.
...no, no, I think you are referring to jrlym, Richard! I'm only self-taught in the sense that I had to practice (wrongly) for a long time before I found someone to teach me some of the basics. Over the course of the last year or so I've had several instructors, all with a different approach and learned from each of them. Three were only "freebie" hour long sessions, like the one's at Orvis. I've "paid" for several one hour to 4 hour sessions also and continually try to remember all they've taught....sometimes it "takes" & sometimes it doesn't!!

I think much of the problem lies in my overly-analytical nature and this likely tends to "muddy-up" things in actual practice....I want every cast to be text-book-perfect and then over-compensate when it ain't....sighhh!

Oh, ever notice how nobody is ever looking when you make a "perfect missle launch cast" and are looking when you muck it up real bad?

Dang-it all, if'n ah wuz trewly sef tot, ahd hav a gud 'scuse fur bean suh lowzy!

Thanks for the feedback, amigo :thumb:

JC:D
 
#93
JC, I think you will find over time that the GL3 guides are much bigger than the average size. I have Sage, Rainshadow, and Scott to compare with and the GL3 guides are about 25% bigger than all of these other models I have on hand at the house.
Are you kidding me? :eek: The tip guide on my GL3 us only about 3 times the diameter of the OB line!!:confused:

Now I will hafta see if four line diameters will clear it - double line loops = 4 line diameters, right?...more or less, right? Hmmm....please correct me if wrong here :confused:...not that you ever would of course, hehe!:D

JC:)
 

Philster

Active Member
#94
I know your reply wasn't directed to me specifically...hope you don't mind too much if I butt in little, sir!

Excellent advice Philster! But you failed utterly in "avoiding brain pain inducing concepts..." hehe, just kidding!; all you say is pretty much as I have been taught by several different casting instuctors in the last few months - all different but basically the same!

One of them, Don Simonsen (I think) at Orvis explained about 3/4's of the way through his seminar, "most instructors that have been teaching "advanced fly casting" have eliminated that phase and only teach "basic, fundemental casting" because 99% of their students are not really "advanced casters" at all, they just think they are "advanced" because they've been "fly fishing" for 25, 30 or more years! Turns out they've forgotten all the fundementals and need to go back to "square one" again! I found that to be a very interesting bit of truth tucked away into a very informative seminar!



This still one of my main "problem areas" in that I cannot seem to get a nice straight, tidy roll cast laid out on the water and have to "sacrifice" the first backcast to get the line all straightned out. 99% of the time it all just "accordions" or zig-zags making a slack-free pick and hence, "loading the rod" impossible until you end the backcast and start the forward cast. Often, because the rods energy is not being transferred to the line (too much slack) at the start of the backcast, the backcast is clumsy & sloppy and thusly must be straightned & tiddied up on the forward cast - I'm sure you see where this is heading....but I don't wanna hi-jack anymore of your thread without your explicit consent!

jc:)
First of all it's not my thread:p

Yup. Your instructor is right. The difference in my mind between a true intermediate caster and an advanced caster is that the advanced caster has moved past being rooted in the mechanics to cast well, and understands what is going on with the rod and the line. However you can never get past being rooted if you never fully master the fundamental mechanics. You also need to never loose sight of the fundamentals, and constantly practice them. If you ever see a Monet sketch you'll see that he was masterful with a pencil, and had total control of it as a tool. His painting style was what he wanted to do. he could have easily done photo-realistic work if he wanted.

As to the roll cast bit, check out some of Simon Gawesworth's stuff on spey casting. His way of teaching the roll cast, specifically where the line needs to be anchored in relation to your casting position is spot on. You can probably scan it quickly at a book store and get what you need to improve significantly almost immediately. I would also recommend looking into learning variation of the spey cast known as the "perry poke" or "Snap-T" depending on the direction and amount of current you're working with as a means of setting up your line. If you KNOW you aren't going to be able to roll it up in less than three tries, why bother? Why not try something else? I use the snap T a ton on the sound.

Lastly, go out and borrow a shooting head setup. I honestly consider the longer integrated lines "intermediate" lines. Yet if we're honest are we all intermediate casters? Learn the fundamental skills you need to work these intermediate lines with a shorter, easier to handle head. ditch the topwater long leader stuff for 3 months and focus on your skills with the shorter head while actually improving your catch ratio due to the "wet fly principal". The more your fly is actually fishing the more fish you'll catch;)
 

Philster

Active Member
#95
A few questions to clarify on the "approved" technique:

1. If I do a false or roll cast or two to get the head out, do I then a) let the line touch down on the water striaght in front of me with rod tip low, b) bring it up to 10:00, c) pause to load the rod, d) shoot with acceleration, and then e) hard stop?
2. At what position do I make the hard stop?
3. Do I still follow the line as it falls after making the hard stop?
4. I assume you double haul, correct?
Wow. Those are big ones. Answering these is dangerous because the answer is prone to being misinterpreted.

1. definitely let the line kiss the water. don't stop at 10. What I was trying to say is that if you start with straight line, water tension, and a low rod tip, by 10 o'clock your rod will be loaded. Still bring it back to your normal launch position. The trick is for heavy flies if you wait until the line is ALMOST straight behind you, right before it starts falling, you add much less shock to your line when you begin your forward cast contributing to a smooth cast and distance. Just slow down everything and watch your backcast and everything will go better.

2. That's a personal thing. I use an old style long stroke shooting head cast for my single hand rods. My rod might stop at 2 o'clock after my wrist pop, I'm leaning on my front foot, and my arm is horizontal and fully extended! But that stroke is relaxed and slower than you can imagine except for the wrist pop at the very end! I can count "one thousand one" calmly during my forward stroke. But that's me. Use YOUR stroke. Just concentrate on your fundamentals and being smooth and relaxed. Don't change your forward stroke other than to back off on the power.

3. Hard to describe in words. After your loop has formed and your cast is sailing, as long as you don't introduce slack in the line you can do pretty much whatever you want. I do flatten out the rod when things are on their way out to reduce some friction on the running line. Heavy heads don't require the "tending" a normal line does in flight. They'll take care of themselves as long as you don't introduce slack.

4. Yes with a single hand rod. a very short sharp tug timed with the wrist pop. 3, 4 inches. Again keep it short and fast. Long and fast will introduce shock and will actually change the path of the rod tip giving you tailing loops and worse, possibly a rod strike with your clouser:eek:
 

Jeremy Floyd

fly fishing my way through life
#96
Just to make sure I wasn't misleading you I went out to the garage to double check. All four of my other 8 wts I have will fit through the 8wt GL3 rod guide at the same spot without touching, as will my 10wt XP. I didnt turn or coax anything to monkey it through either.

That GL3 is about 9 months old.
 

Richard E

Active Member
#97
...no, no, I think you are referring to jrlym, Richard! I'm only self-taught in the sense that I had to practice (wrongly) for a long time before I found someone to teach me some of the basics. Over the course of the last year or so I've had several instructors, all with a different approach and learned from each of them. Three were only "freebie" hour long sessions, like the one's at Orvis. I've "paid" for several one hour to 4 hour sessions also and continually try to remember all they've taught....sometimes it "takes" & sometimes it doesn't!!

I think much of the problem lies in my overly-analytical nature and this likely tends to "muddy-up" things in actual practice....I want every cast to be text-book-perfect and then over-compensate when it ain't....sighhh!

Oh, ever notice how nobody is ever looking when you make a "perfect missle launch cast" and are looking when you muck it up real bad?

Dang-it all, if'n ah wuz trewly sef tot, ahd hav a gud 'scuse fur bean suh lowzy!

Thanks for the feedback, amigo :thumb:

JC:D
You be right; I be thinkin' of jrlyman.

My apologies, mate!

Funny thing about the not having anyone looking when you make a good cast; my good buddy Steve is an excellent caster, and when we're fishing out of my boat often during the course of the day I'll hear him remark "Nice cast, Steve!". They usually are . . . ;)
 

Porter

Active Member
#98
I believe snake guides are better for loop to loop line transfer than single guides. Many salt water fly fisherman prefer snakes too. It's an individual taste.
 
#99
JC, don't worry about high-jacking the thread. It keeps going and growing well. One of the first 4 pager's I've seen that didn't involve disputes ending in someone being kicked out.

So I'll be heading out and using a ton of the tips I've picked up from this "highjacked" thread. I haven't cut the line yet Stonefish, I'm definitely waiting until I know for sure.

I have one quick questions for Philster or Richard or whoever feels like they have an answer.

One of my biggest problems is catching rocks on my backcast. With a wf line I could cast up-er and keep the line higher behind me. When I try to do so with this 40+, it doesn't like going up as high, and then it seems to either fall REALLY fast, or when I power slightly early to avoid that, it whips down and into the beach in a trailing loop. Any tricks or tips to keeping that line high behind me? Or will it just come with practice?
 

Porter

Active Member
jake, it will come with practice, but try speeding up the line on the back cast with your haul pull. Make sure to stop your rod tight at one' o'clock or desired stop point...don't drift the rod on the back cast. Speed, and in this case line speed, is an ally.
 

Philster

Active Member
jake, it will come with practice, but try speeding up the line on the back cast with your haul pull. Make sure to stop your rod tight at one' o'clock or desired stop point...don't drift the rod on the back cast. Speed, and in this case line speed, is an ally.
That's what I love about casting. This is the exact opposite of what I do and it works for you. :thumb: I drift waiting for the backcast loop to straighten for a smoother forward cast.
 

SciGuy

Active Member
Wow. Those are big ones...
Philster, I just got back from the beach. I didn't have the chance to read your responses to my questions before hand but I did try to adhere to your earlier suggestions. I started by chucking out the head and then doing one long/slow water haul followed by the launch. It was really awkward at first but after 10 minutes or so I was getting it out there about 70 feet...striping in til the head was at the rod tip and then repeating. I was a little dissappointed because I wasn't getting it out any further than before...so I went back to false casting until I had the head was out and launching without any water haul but focusing on a lower rod tip on the final backcast....HOLY CRAP! I don't know how but when I was trying to adhere to your suggestions I somehow got much better timing down. I loaded the rod waaaayyyyyyyy better and was suddently busting out 80 foot casts consistently! After doing that for a bit I let the line slap the water on the forward cast for a quick water haul and boom...85-90 feet!!! All I've heard about timing and slowing things down and getting the rod to do all the work finally came together. I owe you and the others on the board big time! I'm a self taught rookie and yet this board has helped me improve light years. Oh yeah, almost forgot...missed one fish and lost a second at my feet.
 

Philster

Active Member
Philster, I just got back from the beach. I didn't have the chance to read your responses to my questions before hand but I did try to adhere to your earlier suggestions. I started by chucking out the head and then doing one long/slow water haul followed by the launch. It was really awkward at first but after 10 minutes or so I was getting it out there about 70 feet...striping in til the head was at the rod tip and then repeating. I was a little dissappointed because I wasn't getting it out any further than before...so I went back to false casting until I had the head was out and launching without any water haul but focusing on a lower rod tip on the final backcast....HOLY CRAP! I don't know how but when I was trying to adhere to your suggestions I somehow got much better timing down. I loaded the rod waaaayyyyyyyy better and was suddently busting out 80 foot casts consistently! After doing that for a bit I let the line slap the water on the forward cast for a quick water haul and boom...85-90 feet!!! All I've heard about timing and slowing things down and getting the rod to do all the work finally came together. I owe you and the others on the board big time! I'm a self taught rookie and yet this board has helped me improve light years. Oh yeah, almost forgot...missed one fish and lost a second at my feet.
Cool! Like I said a few posts ago, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and what works for me may be the exact opposite of what works for someone else, BUT there are certain fundamentals that are hard to escape from and still cast well. How you work those into your style, is really irrelevant. All that matters is that you find a way to make it work consistently and as effort free as possible!
 

Jeremy Floyd

fly fishing my way through life
A shooting head kicks ass for learning to cast because the timing never changes once you get the entire head out past the tip. It is also great once you have good timing because you can throw them an incredible distance with only that one back cast.

I didn't take the time to read every reply in here but I do a roll cast to lift the sink tip up to the surface and to make it so my back haul is 180 degrees from where I am going to shoot the line.

Having everything working in the same plane adds distance.