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So how do you get down in winter?

Spey 
5K views 56 replies 30 participants last post by  James Waggoner 
#1 ·
So how do you get your presentation fishing slow and low, in the winter time?

Lately for me it's been 12 to 16' of t-17 and a large tungston cone head leach....wow there's gotta be an easier way! With that I can fish a good steelhead flow at about 3' - 5' deep with confidence, ticking the larger boulders here and there, knowing I'm getting at least a couple of feet of depth on hang down.
 
#5 ·
I'm not opposed to nymphing, I just prefer to swing....not that the thought hasn't crossed my mind, there is a few runs that I fish hands down would be most productively covered with an indicator, but I just swing the edges and hope. While in the boat, if I'm not rowing I do nymph in transit between drifts, not that I'm any good at it.
 
#6 ·
I was pretty depressed after reading the flyfishing research site once again as posted in the polyleader thread (http://flyfishingresearch.net/calcem...dsinktips.html) about sinktips. I use T14 to get down as well as a weighted fly. T14 uses the rule number of 6 meaning that it takes 6 feet of T14 to get down 1 foot at 3 mph. So to get 3 feet down, it takes 18 feet and 4 feet down, it takes 24 feet. The weighted fly only helps a few inches. Now this is at hangdown and certainly as you cast across current and let it sink before putting tension on, it will get deeper. I have noticed a lot of my fish come shortly after the line comes tight, and I would imagine that is because that is when I am deepest and also the fly is rising, perhaps inducing a strike.

I fished a sink tip of 15 feet of T14 last time out and hooked 2 fished, but not once did I even tick the bottom during about 4 hours of fishing in different areas. I suspect my success rate would be better if I could get down more. I am going out today and will add another loop of T14 and see if I can get down more, without it being a major pain to cast. There becomes a point where the enjoyment of spey casting dissipates and I might as well start nymphing. I hope I don't need to get to that today.

Wayne
 
#7 ·
On skagit set ups,I have started to cut my 15ft tips back by 5ft and then add in a 5ft DC cheater before the sinktip. Same overall length but the DC cheater helps to keep it down better in my opinion. It is easier for the floating tip of the skagit to be pulled under by the DC cheater,then the tip, as opposed to a 15ft tip off the end of a straight floating skagit.The angle of the dangle for the tip off of a floating skagit end is steeper. With the DC cheater and tip the angle to the fish is much more gradual and conducive to keeping the tip in the zone longer.

I think a type 3 and the 5ft DC cheater gets down as far as a type 6 without one. The cheater also helps to slow the swing down because you have more sunken line in the water. It gets to feeling a bit more like a full sink line in a way. With this setup you can adjust your tips to whatever you like and as heavy as you like to fish where you need to.Fishing a weighted or unweighted fly can further dial in your depth.

I was fishing a spot the other day where I had this setup on, and it worked great. I was only using t-8 and a weighted fly in a slightly deeper,faster riffle run and I was just scratching bottom every so often. I was getting a perfect slow swing without throwing a bike chain out there.

Try it

Mark
 
#8 ·
10' of T14 is about my max. Last year I tried all the mega sized shit because I heard stories and what not. It didn't bring me any more fish than I usually get.

I am not sure I buy into that whole sink tip test that those guys did. I fish a short belly Skagit kinda line and on a lot of the runs I pull steelhead, I can see that my tip and belly and fly are diving down deep into the water.

How do I do this? I cast straight across the current, don't mend much, maybe feed some line, suspend as much running line as possible, and lead the fly by a hair. It is a delicate balancing act but I can definitely see my sink tip and fly and the tip of the belly diving deep down and it makes me feel more confident when I see that.

I am very rapidly moving towards that old duffer camp that makes a big deal out of line control and reading water as to where to place your cast. It really does make a HUGE difference.
 
#10 ·
J.. nice post. Several of my haunts fish best with a floating Skagit. Presentation IS the game. Specific patterns.. not so much.

pcknshvl, I'm with you. The DDC is an extremely versitile system. Cut it a little fat and it can be fished very similar to a Skagit. The dual density factory tips are approx 15' [their metric] so if you've cut to somewhere 36' - 38' total the intermediate body will measure in low - mid 20' range.. They'll easily turn over T 14 while at the same time dropping below the heaviest surface currents, relieving alot of the water tension and getting below conflicting seams, etc.

I had friends suggest an intermediate Skagit head a few years ago.. and were promptly laughed off the board. Now Bob Meiser & Steve Godshall are going to be building them :thumb: They may be available now. I think they'll prove their worth.
 
#11 ·
there a tons of techniques to "get down" but I like to let the line sink as it slides downriver and count the number of seconds before it comes under tension. If I dont feel like I am getting down I cast closer to the 90 (vs the 45 down) and give it a couple more seconds. I am 100% in agreement with Wayne on the fish striking at the "lift" when the tension pulls on the fly at the corner as it begins to swing.
 
#14 ·
I gotta say its more like a Nymph/swing for me. I cast at a 90 degree angle put a slight mend in the line, then maybe a feed and pintch into the seem as I put tension on the line. The highest sink I got is T14 and usually opt for T11 cuz we all know about the hang down.
 
#16 ·
Yeah, sure mending can get you down but as soon as the line comes tight and the swing starts you're rising and rising fast out of the targeted zone. In deeper flows the sink tip keeps the fly lower through out the swing; now the fly will still rise, just not as fast and as much. Now of course the targeted zone can be the entire water column in the summertime when fish are active and aggressive but in the winter time you got to be the aggresor and bring the fly to the fish.

Think of it this way, your fishing waste deep in walking pace flow, casting out 65' with a weighted fly and a type 8 tip at 90 degrees accross stream into 4' of water, you mend a couple of times, you've got great depth, your now about 40' out and down stream when your swing starts, the fly quickly starts to rise from 4' of depth to 1' and your only half way through the swing, you finish your swing in 3 1/2' of water... now there are alot of other factors but let us assume it happend just as it was discribed in a cold winter stream targeting steelhead....who wouldn't think more depth would be a benefit, fishing lower thoughout the entire swing?
 
#19 ·
Think of it this way, your fishing waste deep in walking pace flow,
First off you are wading to deep. When I see people wading up to their balls I wait for them to get done then fish the water they missed up close. Second, why does everyone think the line rises during the swing? If you are controlling the speed of your swing correctly the line should not rise.
 
#17 ·
I like where your going with this, I just dont usually fish a body of water that has a uniform 4ft depth. I cant think of very many winter swing runs I fish that are 65ft at 90 degrees and 4ft deep. More like 65ft at 90degrees and 6-10ft deep. I then feed and pinch into the seem geting good depth as the fly rises with the swing I finish in the strike zone at 2-4 ft of water. I am on my way out the door to fish the Sandy R. I will be doing more research and maybe even try some of that T17.
 
#18 ·
I get down with a bottle of wine, roaring fire, some good jazz, and a hot blonde
Good concept, but I substitute smooooth whiskey for the wine, old time Rock & Roll for the jazz, & eliminate the hot blonde entirely (at my age, she'd have to be a desperate hot blonde and then would ultimately only be disappointed). Apart from that, I pretty much mimic Jeremy's technique.
 
#20 ·
Good discussion. I was tossing 15 ft of T-17 on Sunday. However, I'm tying and fishing weighted flies less and less. I do fish a weighted fly but more to get the hook riding up than to get the fly down. With a few feet of leader, how much extra depth do you get with a tungsten weighted fly? Is it worth the risk of dinging an expensive rod and all the extra hangups?
 
#21 ·
I agree that's wading too deep in most conditions, but for the sake of the illustration, your waist deep because that's how deep the run is... it's right off the bank with trees to your back. So how do you controll the line correctly so it doesn't rise, short of feeding it line during the swing?
"Why does everyone think the line rises during the swing?" The problem is most fisherman don't think or know the lines rising, and proceed through a run believing they have really covered a particutlar run but in fact have only really scratched the top water.

In all sincerity please tell, I know I have lots to learn...So how do you do it? I'd like to learn to loose my dependency on sink tips in winter.

James.
 
#22 ·
If I were Wadin' Boot I might be able to write up how I think it works. As you know each piece of water is different and no run remains the same down its entire length as such each cast will and must be handled seperately. Not being a capable word smith like the Boot I can only offer to go fishing someday, look at each other's methods and learn from each other. Also I don't think you are going to get rid of your sink tips.
 
#23 ·
Thanks Kerry, I agree every piece of waters different and rarely do we ever fish a piece of it with only one current flow. Realisticaly the flows most of us fish are heaviest and deepest away from us and shallow and slow as they near us, knowing that, the factors are a matter of judgment...do I adjust for the heaviest part and get hung up when it gets too shallow or plan for the shallow slow hang down and mend like a mad man and feed line to cover the deep part, I always try to opt for the middle, mend to get some added depth and then speed the fly up by leading it to avoid the hang up on the hang down.

Would love to fish and learn with you sometime,

James.
 
#24 ·
With every steelheader I fish with, my theory seems shifts a little on what tip setup, where the cast is placed, to walk with the cast or after it...so my thoughts have changed over the years. Lately I am trying to fish tips that allow me to fish my flies all the way to a full hang down, and most of the heavy tips that I have been using aren't allowing me to fish all the way until things are straight down. So I guess I have been fishing shallower, lighter, and slower, and the results have been eye opening. Obviously this won't work in all situations, but opening my eyes to new types of steelhead water has been cool and fun.

Ask me about 'how I get down in winter' two weeks from now, and my story may be different.
 
#25 ·
I get down off of a duck or the Old Lady.. And I nymph in the winter time. With tiny flies,a bobber and a "BB" shot for weight.

And to top it all off I DON"T fish for STEELHEAD. They are a waste of time. Just Browns and RB's. Where I fish they are RB's not Steelhead.
 
#26 ·
If you're fishing 12'-16' feet of T-17 and only occasionally ticking bottom, you may want to spend some time working on controlling that rig rather than adding more mass. In general I fish standard Rio tips (150gr), and unless I'm fishing something specialized, I don't really feel the need for more than my type 6 tip.
 
#28 ·
Try different casting angles and try to make it so there is no "tension" on the line as it's getting ready to get swung. Play with different rod angles hold it up or down, off to the side. Watch closely where the line enters the water and compare how those parts of the line are moving in relation to the belly (is it being dragged by the belly for instance).That just flat out takes time on the water and watching both how the line behaves during the swing "setup" and as tension is being applied. Also, don't be afraid to experiment with different kinds of mends. Some water requires upstream mends, others downstream, while some don't require any. Also most folks that fish that I see often fish water that is too fast. The walking speed water you are looking for is where the *fish* are, not where you want to cast to or where you are standing. More often than not (and I'm just as guilty), folks cast too far into the current and end up with their flies not swinging effectively in the water that holds fish. But note, that does NOT mean you don't need to be able to cast long distances. Lots of runs will have dead water separating you from the fish which requires you to cast far, then make downstream mends to avoid having the fly get pulled....
 
#31 ·
Nail on the head,,,good to see some old school tactics come out,,,remember the single hand days of sink tipping, tension or lack there of was and still is everything:)
It does not allways take heavy and more often then not drifting the swing is key,,,tapp some bottom to get a little head!!!!
 
#29 ·
James W.,

How I get down in the winter is changing a bit from when I began and SA Hi-D was the fastest sinking commercial fly line available. Then I tried shooting heads with 12 - 14' of lead core in them, a la Glasso style. Then SA High Speed Hi-D came out in 1977, and we thought we'd discovered the bee's knees of sinking fly lines. SA HS Hi-D is about a type 3 in current fly line nomenclature. Throughout all that, I almost never used a weighted fly. And I hung up and lost scads of flies using that gear. I believe the term is called watermanship.

This is to preface saying that I've never used T-14 or even seen T-17. I cannot fathom it being practical. I have a couple 15' T-8 tips I made a couple years ago and find that they keep me wrapped about the stones far too often. I'm finding that a type 3 and type 6 15' tip get most of my winter steelheading work done. I don't know how you can get a complete drift with the tips and weighted flies you describe using. I like to use the fastest sinking line that allows me to fish all the way to the hang down without hanging up. For me, that's a 15' type 3 or 6 tip in most steelhead holding water.

Some of the above posts describe what I think are key to watermanship: angle of cast, distance, upon what water you cast, mending, and line management. If steelhead fishing were a weight-lifting and throwing contest, I'd probably fish for something else. My impression is that you're making too much work of the "gentle art." My recommendation for steepening your watermanship curve is to fish a floating line and a sparsely dressed fly with one or two coneheads at the end of a 10 or 12' leader. Your learning objective will be to hang up in prime steelhead holding water. I think you'll quickly learn that you don't need a half pound of lead or tungsten to put a fly in the winter steelhead zone.

Good luck.

Sg
 
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