NFR: No Solution, just dead kids...

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There have been many points, good and bad (IMHO), in the hours I've been offline. I'll only comment on a couple.

Gearhead, your point is a valid one that it is only a very small number of gun owners who commit mass murders, and it is true that these events are what stimulate conversations such as this, but that is true only because we are inured to the day to day gun violence that exists in our society. It is the tens of thousands of gun-related deaths EVERY YEAR that are the much greater concern.

To the many voices of reason who call for greater help for the mentally ill, Gearhead, you politicize the issue by saying that "the libs keep blocking" gun ownership 'rights' for those with mental illness. Please bear in mind that those people still have rights as citizens in our society and those are the same rights that the NRA so vocally endorse. Mental illness is not a simple one size fits all medical condition. You can't do a DNA test and say, "Yup, see that band on the gel, that's mental illness." So, don't be so quick to throw out the rights of millions of your fellow citizens for something that not only YOU don't understand, but that science and the medical community don't fully understand.

Lugan has been one of the voices of reason in this thread, and his point that the "genie is out of the bottle" certainly is a line of reasoning that is difficult to dispute. But I'll take a shot, nonetheless.

75 years ago, we could have said the same thing about many communicable diseases: "They are so widespread that many people alive today are going to die whether we do anything or not." But we still went ahead with developing vaccines and implementing them in routine medical care and, whaddya know? Small pox is gone from the world; polio is virtually extinct in the USA; and many others have diminished to the point that it is newsworthy once again when someone comes down with Rubella.

Yes, if we implement serious, effective gun restrictions today, along with a buy-back policy like WadinBoot mentioned, we are unlikely to see significantly reduced gun mortality next year, but we will the year after that and the year after that. As has been pointed out before, many of the guns used in crimes were not purchased by the perpetrator, but were stolen from legal owners. As guns are bought back and confiscated in the routine of law enforcement, we WILL gradually become a safer society. Maybe by the time your children are grown, they won't have to live in a society where nearly 50,000 people die every year by murder or suicide committed by guns.

Lugan, I'm sure you know this, and I don't expect your decision whether to purchase a handgun to change, but children who live in homes with handguns present are much more likely to be killed or injured by handguns than those who live in homes without handguns. We've seen too many examples of that here in Washington in the past year, including in homes of law enforcement officers, who should know best how to safely handle and store firearms. For your kids' sake, be redundant in your safety measures.

As for having one for security while you are afield? There's no need to rationalize owning a handgun. They are beautiful examples of engineering, fun to shoot, and satisfy some deep emotional want in many people. So, as long as they are legal, go for it; but safety while out hiking or fishing? Nah...

Dick
 

wadin' boot

Donny, you're out of your element...
How do you stop a gunman that is already there?
Gearhead- I bet you already have your own answer.

You have the kids and teachers practice lockdowns, you have doors that lock, you close the blinds and turn out the light, you have teachers that are armed, you have panic buttons. You have a rapid police response. You shoot the gunman.

How would you stop a guy with body armor in a grade school?

In the past two years my wife's grade school has had 5 real lockdowns, they practice either a fire, earthquake or lockdown drill each month. Guess where her school is? The University District, Seattle, a couple of blocks from the Cafe Racer shooting. I can't help but find those facts depressing, but that is the new reality, even in a bastion of liberals.


People are talking about mental illness because as far as I can tell that's where the problem starts....

We should all have more than one question...
 

ribka

Active Member
Nothing to do with the fact that crazy and racist (your implication) Or as wading boot put it "paranoid" gun owners are aware that The half black choom gang Pres Obama is on record as an IL Senator saying he wanted to ban all firearms like in Chicago, NYC qnd DC


The dubious right of free speech is next

"If they bring a knife I'll bring a gun"
Barack Hussein Obama- Nobel Peace prize recipient




As someone here I respect very much posted on another forum, one has as much chance of having a rational conversation about gun control with most pro-gun Americans as they do convincing a jihadist Muslim to embrace cartoons depicting the prophet.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that these 'rational' pro-gun advocates purchased record amounts of ammunition from stores like Cabelas in the weeks before and after our recent presidential election, convinced that they 'needed' it to defend themselves and their families against the chaos that was sure to result if American re-elected a black president.

But I could be wrong.

K
 
"If they bring a knife I'll bring a gun"
Barack Hussein Obama- Nobel Peace prize recipient
I can take quotes out of context too

"We're a nation that believes in the Second Amendment, and I believe in the Second Amendment. We've got a long tradition of hunting and sportsmen and people who want to make sure they can protect themselves. My belief is that we have to enforce the laws we've already got, make sure that we're keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, those who are mentally ill. We've done a much better job in terms of background checks, but we've got more to do when it comes to enforcement."

- Barrack Obama
 

ribka

Active Member
Politicians would never lie or pander to forward an agenda especially our Mr Choom gang/drone Pres

I distinctly remember this famous politician looking into the camera and wagging his finger for emphasis after cheating on our current Sec of State

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman"





I can take quotes out of context too

"We're a nation that believes in the Second Amendment, and I believe in the Second Amendment. We've got a long tradition of hunting and sportsmen and people who want to make sure they can protect themselves. My belief is that we have to enforce the laws we've already got, make sure that we're keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, those who are mentally ill. We've done a much better job in terms of background checks, but we've got more to do when it comes to enforcement."

- Barrack Obama
 
Politicians would never lie or pander to forward an agenda especially our Mr Choom gang/drone Pres

I distinctly remember this famous politician looking into the camera and wagging his finger for emphasis after cheating on our current Sec of State

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman"
As long as you believe whatever suits your bias.
 

ribka

Active Member
Your lack of firearms and firearms laws is mind boggling.

Children's bodies still warm and all you are concerned with is pushing your anti gun agenda just like our pos politicians

Give it at least a few days


I say:

-If you have ever been found guilty of a felony, no gun permit.
-If you have ever been found guilty of assualt and battery, no gun permit.
-If you have ever been found guilty of beating your wife, no gun permit.
-If you have ever been found to have certain mental/behavioral problems, no gun permit.
I'm sure there could be more added to this list.
 

Mike T

Active Member
Well case closed then, eh? 5% of all deaths is surely an acceptable price to pay for the dubious 'right' to maintain one's own personal arsenal.

K
It bears pointing out that this shooter did not possess his own "personal arsenal", he stole it. It should also be a point of discussion that that there is much settled law, on the federal level, re the scope of the 2nd Amendment. I'm uncertain why this particular amendment is more dubious than the others, but here are two links to recent & notable cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._Chicago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

Kent also posted, "Let's not lose sight of the fact that these 'rational' pro-gun advocates purchased record amounts of ammunition from stores like Cabelas in the weeks before and after our recent presidential election, convinced that they 'needed' it to defend themselves and their families against the chaos that was sure to result if American re-elected a black president.

I'm sure there were some bitter clingers buying this ammunition. However for a lot of mentally balanced sport shooters federal policies relating to ammunition were at the heart of this buying. Following the Korean War the US military left a lot of M-1 Garands and 30-06 ball ammo in Korea in case the hostilities reignited. As these arms became obsolete they were sent back to the US and the rifles & ammo were sold through the Office of Civilian Marksmanship, http://www.odcmp.com/. This ammo was relied on by sport shooters for years, however the Obama administration has stopped that re-importation thus driving costs up. The govt had also previously allowed the sale of spent casings from military use. These were purchased by ammunition manufacturers and private parties who loaded their own ammo. This too was ordered stopped by the Obama administration, thus driving up costs. Interestingly enough this brass isn't allowed to be recycled for fears it will fall into shooter's hands, it all goes to landfills by federal order. This coupled with emerging industrial nations (China for instance) desire for metals has caused prices to soar.

There have always been runs on guns and ammunition when a democratic administration or congress is elected. I remember this when Clinton was elected so I highly doubt the president's race had anything to do with it. I hope that you will note that this gun nuts portion of this discussion was rational and fact based.
 

ribka

Active Member
I believe politics was first introduced in this thread



I for once agree with one of your posts! One thing to keep in mind is that back in these times (until the Reagan years) mental health was taken very seriously, and the government provided care and treatment for these types of people. Nowadays, the mentally ill have nowhere to go. Mental health is the first thing on the chopping block when budgets are slashed. Perhaps we should reconsider this tactic.
 
I believe politics was first introduced in this thread
A political post not based on bias or personal feelings, but on facts and history of policy. I keep my own political beliefs out of such discussions, and stick to things that can be backed up with facts and evidence. Nobody's political leanings are going to change from an online argument. Given I don't subscribe to one of the two major political belief systems, I take an outsider's look in to these matters.
 
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