NFR A Guardian Teacher Law

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Brad Soliday, Dec 18, 2012.

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  1. gearhead

    gearhead Active Member

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    atleast there are two people who can understand, that the only way to stop force is with force.
     
  2. SteveA

    SteveA Gnu to the board

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    Somewhere where the teachers aren't armed, schools aren't fortresses, the fishing is excellent and the women are beautiful.
     
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  3. BaldBob

    BaldBob Member

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    I listened to the NPR piece on the school that allows some teachers to be armed. While I still have considerable concern about armed teachers in the school, after hearing the interviews, I can see where such a program could have considerable merit.
    !. All of the armed teachers are volunteers. None are asked to take on that responsibility.
    2.All of them receive training and are thoroughly screened for psychological fitness for that task.
    3.The personnel who are armed are not identified (though I imagine the kids would figure it out fairly quickly).
    4. The ammunition issued is designed to fragment very easily (no ricochets, hitting someone on the other side of a thin wall , or hitting someone beyond the intended target).

    To me the biggest benefit would not be how effective the armed personnel are in stopping a crazy who is already in the school, but in stopping a crazy from even trying to shoot up a school because he knows that some of the staff may be armed. If a school lets it be known that teachers and staff members may be armed - even if in fact none of them are - it will deter many potential perpetrators. Will it stop all the crazies? Of course not. One only needs to remember the assassination attempt on Reagan - despite all the Secret Service security - to reach that conclusion. However, I believe it would prevent the bulk of these incidents.
     
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  4. Alex MacDonald

    Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

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    Chris-incongruity? Elaborate, please?

    I've taught at a University since the mid-70's, and would have had no problem carrying around the students. Hell people, that's the central theme of a concealed carry permit---it's concealed! You won't see my Walther unless you physically search my person. Might notice my belt's a little lower on one side if I had the Sig though.

    But I'm also not in favor of the guardian teacher concept. Better to use someone who's spooled up completely, and here we come to the issue with cops: their job is to arrest, as in "hold for higher authority". Mine was to neutralize, as in "d-e-a-d".
     
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  5. Alex MacDonald

    Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

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    Good luck with that, Steve! If there's good in-track Nordic skiing there, let me know too? I'd think about Norway, Sweden or Finland, but I've been to them, and it's not all idyllic there, either. They all sound like the Swedish Chef on the Muppets:D
     
  6. gearhead

    gearhead Active Member

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    i believe there are two cases of school administrators or staff who have stopped would be mass shooters with their own firearm, by running out to their cars to get a gun. its interesting how you dont see that talked about.
     
  7. Brad Soliday

    Brad Soliday New Member

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    Let me try and break down the logic people are using to oppose a Guardian Teacher Law:

    1. Only security guards and police can reasonably be expected to keep guns from accidently going off in their pants. :confused:

    2. Only people who are tactically trained should TRY to stop mass murder. If you are not tactically trained you'll more than likely do it wrong. People who are not tactically trained should wait for experts to arrive and let them correctly stop mass murder. :(

    Let me pose a question: If confronted with mass murder happening in front or near you... is it better to, A) have a gun.... or B) have no gun? From your posts some of you have argued"B" because you wouldn't want to risk accidently shooting someone in an attempt at stopping mass murder. :confused:

    Many of you also seem to have an opinion of, and experience with teachers that is vastly different from my own. Contrary to some opinions expressed on this board we are not all on the verge of mental apoplexy. There are thousands of very, very competent and professional people who do this job. Only the best of the best would be considered to carry and only if they are comfortable with the additional responsibility.
    I am absolutely confident that i can safely carry a weapon on campus (and i don't take that lightly). I am completely confident that many of my colleagues can also.

    I do not know how i would perform in the unlikely event that a shooter would walk onto my campus... i might crap my pants, i may shake like a leaf... but i would not be going up against the Terminator... i am pretty confident that i'd be able to interrupt/delay mass murder... if i was armed. if not... then murder has a rhythm interrupted only by having to reload, change guns, or track to another target... and that makes me sick to think about.
     
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  8. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

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    ... jerk the trigger on the first pull and hit a kid... or any number of shit that happens the first time you are in a situation like that. You should listen to the vets here that are telling you how it is. Would you take steelheading advise from someone who's never caught a steelhead? Listen to the pros man. They are good at what they do.
     
  9. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    Careful. You're also helping to make a case for banning guns in the US in general for everyone except "pros".
     
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  10. Brad Soliday

    Brad Soliday New Member

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    So your advice is be a spectator to murder or be a patient victim??? I should hide while kids are being murdered because i'm worried about my emotional state if i make a terrible mistake trying to stop murder???? I just don't understand this logic.
    Basically what you're saying is "you can't possibly understand what its like to be in a situation like this." Yes! I get that! I agree, i don't know... never want to know.... and have the ultimate respect for those who have gone through combat and have trained to operate under those conditions. But that doesn't mean i'm helpless or incompetent, and i'm far more worried about the agony of inaction than the agony of action.
     
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  11. gearhead

    gearhead Active Member

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    ok i think my mind was changed, a School Administrator was on the news saying that no staff member should be able to carry a concealed gun, because that staff member is more likely to shoot children than the shooter.....i guess he's right, never thought of that.
    Who woulda thought that interfering with a mass shooter, would increase the body count.

    I love the Logic of Educators.
     
  12. GAT

    GAT Dumbfounded

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    I suppose we could go back to the wild west approach where just about everyone had a gun. It worked during the cold war when neither the US or USSR would launch missiles because both sides knew missiles would be sent in return.
     
  13. Richard Olmstead

    Richard Olmstead BigDog

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    Here at the U of W, the police offer "active shooter" situational training to faculty/staff/student groups. I've been through it. It is pretty grim, by design, so that no one comes away thinking the reality of an active shooter scenario is the same as a computer game or a movie. The assumption is that, if you are in this situation, your life is at imminent risk. They offer a series of recommended steps to take, including, among others, starting with calling 911, and including active resistance with whatever is available, if confronted and no escape route available.

    They explicitly don't want armed staff/students in such scenarios. With relatively quick response times (a college campus police force has usually has a small, compact area to cover, so response can be quick), if there are armed vigilantes/defenders on an 'active shooter' call scene when they arrive, it is highly likely that those armed individuals will quickly become police victims, because they are trained to immediately take out armed individuals in those settings.

    I think too many folks assume that armed do-gooders will be recognized by police as good guys, but that will almost never be the case (unless they are in uniform). Armed teachers, armed students, armed staff will almost always be considers suspects on first sight in 'active shooter' situations, and in those circumstances police are not going to be asking questions when confronted with someone holding a gun.

    D
     
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  14. Gary Knowels

    Gary Knowels Active Member

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    D,
    That is a very good point that I had not thought about even though I already opposed arming teachers.
     
  15. seasel

    seasel New Member

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    I still understand your point. We are in the same conversation. You and I and everyone posting on this thread want the same result: "every young child to have the opportunity to go home every day."

    My question was specific to what you suggest for achieving that goal. You suggested multiple layers and other things - what exactly are the layers and things?

    I won't whip up anything.
     
  16. Alex MacDonald

    Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

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    This from an "administrator"! I've been in education for 35 years, and haven't EVER encountered one who knew their butt from a hot rock. None in my department, none in my college (Letters & Science); not even a veteran among them. And a combat vet? Dream on! And of course this suit knows all about it, even though I'd bet he's never fired a weapon-ever. While Be Jofus G may have a small point, it would be better if you knew the stats of targeting success between LEOs and CCP folks. The majority of cops only pull their sidearm when they have to qualify. Are there some good shooters? Of course: a majority? not on your life!

    Again, someone who's untrained, there might be an issue. Someone who's trained, practices several times a week at the range, especially one who's been in a firefight or three, probably not. And you should keep in mind, the whack-job's not trained: he's standing there completely exposed (probably because he knows no one's gonna cap his ass), just blasting away. He's just a fish in a barrel as far as I'm concerned.
     
  17. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    Alex, I can't believe it, but you and I appear to agree on this. I'll ask again, since no one has answered: Why not hire veterans from the last decade of Iraq and Afghan wars, screen and train them, and give them jobs protecting schools? It could solve both school security issues and veterans' unemployment. Of course, taxes would need to rise (or gov't spending would need to be re-allocated). Is this a bad idea, and if so, why?
     
  18. Brad Soliday

    Brad Soliday New Member

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    They explicitly don't want armed staff/students in such scenarios. With relatively quick response times (a college campus police force has usually has a small, compact area to cover, so response can be quick), if there are armed vigilantes/defenders on an 'active shooter' call scene when they arrive, it is highly likely that those armed individuals will quickly become police victims, because they are trained to immediately take out armed individuals in those settings.
    D[/quote]

    I struggle with this logic.... do not take active/aggressive steps to stop a mass murderer who is actively trying to kill you and children because you might accidently be shot??? I'll accept that risk over victimization and helplessness.

    I work in a school district with 600 kids K-12 on two campuses separated by a street. We have one half time unarmed security guard assigned to the high school... no one providing security in the elementary. We are 15 minutes from the nearest police sub station. It would be wonderful to have UW's level of security, but that is unfeasible.

    Additionally... the profile of a guardian teacher would likely be very different, age, dress, behavior, weapon (single, small and concealable) than an active shooter. Humans are actually very good and processing this type of input in split seconds. And as the pros here would probably testify... one of us would likely be dead or out of ammo way before the cops show up.
     
  19. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

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    Not at all. I just don't want you (proverbial) trying to shoot an assailant indoors with my kids in the area. If you are going to arm people in schools, they better have "I have experience being shot at by skumbags" and "I have experience shooting skumbags" written somewhere in bold on their resume. I'm assuming you've never hired anyone for a professional position before, but generally, If you want someone to do a job without fucking it up, you hire someone with experience and a proven track record. We're not talking about teaching the alphabet or making necklaces out of macaroni or bullshit like that. We're talking about putting a round into someones fucking head, indoors with children running around. Sorry I don't trust you or any school staff I've met in my life to do that, save for my high school janitor who wore a beret before the pentagon made it a fashion statement. We are in a unique moment in US history where there just happen to be quite a few of those types available for hire.

    You are an Educator, That is what you are trained to do, that is what you are paid to do, that is what you should do.
     
  20. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

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    That is going to happen regardless of what I say or do.
     
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