Advanced Scandi Dudes

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by Darthmonkey, Dec 1, 2013.

  1. Darthmonkey

    Darthmonkey Active Member

    I have a few questions for those of you advanced Scandi guys I am hoping can help me make a decision and properly rig head/tip/leader so that I am not fighting lines and able to continue casting the way I have, but able to get my fly down deep.
    I have read in multiple places, and even seen people using sinking Scandi heads. Either full sink, or sink tips with density compensated heads to effectively fish deep down. Previously I had reserved my winter steelhead deep sunk fly work to purely Skagit heads with T11 or T17 tips. This winter I want to fish with mostly Scandi heads (obviously there are places where a large fly and Skagit head will have their place) and am exploring ways in which to get my fly down deep. Until recently that meant going with a head and not having the option to change sinking rates on the river to something slower than what your sinking head was rated for. Yet seeing Rio's offering, I am intrigued and was wondering if I am way off here, or is this something I could do and still have fun casting this set-up.
    • Use Rio's Scandi Body, Intermediate sink rate.
    • Loop on tips from intermediate sink rate, all the way to Type 6 sink rate.
    • Finally finish the rig with a 15 foot poly-leader of an equal or faster sinking rate than the tip I have currently rigged.
    My internal justification for this goes as such, the Rio Scandi body is only 23 feet long, much less than what would be required for a 13'3" spey rod, but conveniently if looped with a 15 foot "tip" would make the head 38 feet long, roughly a foot shorter than the max acceptable head length of 3 times the rod length. Thus creating a sinking tip head. The poly leader being of equal, or greater sink rate would also create a poor man's density compensated line while still having a degree of modularity that would not involve purchasing 5 or more shooting heads & carrying them with me on the water. Rather a tip wallet, poly-leader wallet with a nice little spool of tippet and a box of flies so that I could maximize the kinds of water I can cover while hiking around, without having to drag along another rod and all of it's requisite kit.

    Is the above scenario feasible?
    Or am I trying to create some sort of monster that nobody on this message board has attempted?
    Or would I be better off purchasing a single additional head of the sinking tip variety and call it good?

    Any and all opinions/advice are welcomed.
  2. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    sounds painful! It's a monster some of us have attempted... you're giving me flashbacks, man...

    I'd suggest setting the total length of your fullsink heads at 2.65X the length of your 13' rod. On fullsink heads a short (6' or less) leader is used. Will be VERY tough to get anything else out without a bunch of rollcasting, though spiral pickups can help.
    If you want the Int body/sinktip versatility, try a Guideline DDC or something like.

    I've also found that the rod action is very important when fishing full sink scandi heads, I prefer a stiffer tip for getting fullsinks out.
    I could write a seriously kooky-long post about this, but would be easier to just show you. I live near Roy, PM if you want to trade digits and talk about this, or try some heads out. I have a box full.
    fredaevans likes this.
  3. David Dalan

    David Dalan 69°19'15.35" N 18°44'22.74" E

    I would think you will run into trouble with energy transfer between the sink tip and the pollyleader. The sink tip is probably going to have a much smaller diameter than the butt section of the polyleader (the one I have is tapered, and I see the other polyleaders described as tapered as well).

    You'd end up with thick-thin-thick setup, and I think it would be challenging. I had a similar experience this summer fishing medium MOW tips on a 5 wt scandi head. I fished it all day and it was usable, but not ideal.

    Compound that with the extra length of the proposed rig and I think it may not excite you. I know you were asking for expert advice...but I cannot help myself anyway :)
    fredaevans likes this.
  4. Klickrolf

    Klickrolf Active Member

    Sounds way to complex for me. I'd just go with an airflo delta mutli-tip line. If you prefer Rio it would be whatever replaced the multi-tip windcutter. It's not a shooting head system and will increase the belly length a little but you don't have to mess with all the other crap. Simplicity is what I like. The airflo tips are floating, intermediate, type 3 & type 7 I believe. Also, if you want to get deeper you can loop on a shortish piece of T-material (under 10') in place of the other tips and have at it. It's about all I use and covers nearly every situation I can imagine.
    Ian Broadie likes this.
  5. Dan Page

    Dan Page Active Member

    Ditto what SpeySpaz said. The DDC Int. with the complementing tips will give you lots of options. They don't cast quite as well as a tapered scandi line--like a Power Taper, but not so bad once you find the right groove. For me the big advantage of Int. heads is the slower swing rate. And yes, not all rods pull these heads out well, specially in turbulent hangdown situations.
  6. I would not worry so much about the thick and thin aspect but make sure that the Scandi head has the weight and mas to turn over your tip and fly set up. You are trying to get deeper and your rod will need to overcome the grab of the water on a sunk line when starting your pick up to move into whatever spey cast you are using to deliver the fly.
  7. Derek Day

    Derek Day Rockyday

    A 510gr compact scandi will throw tips around 100 grains. I fish scandis and windcutters almost exclusively in the winter.

    Don't overthink it.
  8. hydrological

    hydrological beads are NOT flies and snagging is just ghetto

    you might look at the winter athority 45 from nextcast. on rods over 12' long, still a compact stroke, and a real pleasure to cast. doesnt just handle tips, it casts great with them. the 6/7 if i remember is about 470 gr and about 42' length w/ floating tip. gets slightly longer as the head gets heavier, a real easy transition from casting a scandi (easier than a delta) you can get a full line version, or head only. i use the delta 7/8 tips at 85 grains on the 470gr head, often w/ lightly weighted flies, and they cast great. t-8 is fine as well. you want this line about 20-40gr heavier than you current scandi, it wont feel heaqvy like you might think. also great for summer fish and big wind with the intermediate tip, and you have the floating tip too. yes, a whole other line, but so much simpler than what you described. one loop, a couple tips, and you can forget the polys, just use a 3-4' mono leader, and go. you can always use your skagit for t-14 and heavy flies.
  9. Klickrolf

    Klickrolf Active Member

    As hydological noted, the Nextcast WA45 is a great option. Been fishing a multi-tip delta for a long time and tried a couple Nextcast 45 lines in the last month. Both lines I tried were FF45 lines (full lines, not heads) that I cut and looped and used similarly rated delta tips on them. One a 7/8 (cut at 13') and the other an 8/9 (cut at 15'). Cast the lines on 12' rods (Scotish Daiwa's, rated 7/9, and 8/9) and liked them quite well. With the FF45 8/9 I could easily cast 10' of T-18, had some trouble with the delta 8/9 with T-18 but it was doable. One thing I really noticed was how the Nextcast kept pulling line off my the point I had to strip too much line back in for the next cast. The Nextcast 45's are nice and will throw heavier tips than a similar delta.
  10. Darthmonkey

    Darthmonkey Active Member

    I think I am going to go with the idea posted of trying a down-sized Skagit head with tips. In particular an Airflo 390 grain Skagit intermediate with 15 foot Rio 6 weight tips cut down to 13 feet or so that should give me a head length of 34 feet, and roughly 10 grains heavier than my current floating head.
  11. danimal

    danimal Inglorious Twohander

    One option that hasn't been addressed isn't actually a scandi....But it is my go to solution for what you describe I think... But it is a floating body..Airflo rage-30 to 60 grns lighter than what you throw for a skagit...I run rio 15ft spey tips on the end of them, N 6 to 9 ft leaders, depending on water clarity N depth..Touch N go or sustained anchor--they cast and fish really sweet..
  12. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Nice, Darth. That plan will put you in the zone I think.
  13. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

    What weight rod are you using?

    I don't care much for Skagit casting but I have utilized Skagit bodies to build efficient casting systems for my lighter rods...
    For example... I use 360 compact Skagit with 8# Rio tips on my 7110z with medium sized bead head flies, casts easily 70-90' singles and snake rolls knee deep.

    By the way...I've chased this rainbow ends with a closet full of lines, splice kits, a hair drier and a lot of heads that resemble the WA45 WA55 and 70.

    hookedonthefly and fredaevans like this.
  14. Darthmonkey

    Darthmonkey Active Member

    Plans change, to save a few more bucks I'm just gonna have Steve Godshall roll me up one of his new(ish) iScandi heads. I've got all the poly-leaders I need to make the system work and while it isn't the "Triple D/DDC" - like system I had envisioned with this downlined skagit head or rio scandi body nonsense; I think it'll still get me low'n slow while still being fun to cast. Thanks for the words and the advice everyone, much obliged.
  15. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

    Poly leaders have their place, winter fishing with larger weighted flies isn't one of them. Be prepared for disappointment.

    If you want that ddd system just go with the intermediate Skagit and 15' rio tips. The tips are density compensated so you'll have your three d's you want. This system will turn over larger weighted flies and will also be easily modified as conditions change....just change the tip, change your casting angle,fly Or how/when to feed line into the drift.

    If you've already bought it don't worry it's not a loss it'll be a good summer and early fall line.

    shotgunner likes this.
  16. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Nice choice Darth, that's a great alternative! Steve has whipped up a few Scandi and Skandit heads for me too, though I'm not a huge fan of PVC heads.
    Can I suggest you explore your options with him further by checking out his Skandit heads? They'll open up the versatility beyond a floating scandi's capabilities and allow you to also fish a floater or full bull sinktip.
  17. Darthmonkey

    Darthmonkey Active Member

    I will definitely consider that, but while talking to Mr. Godshall on the phone as soon as the words "intermediate scandi head" were uttered he got really excited. I believe the words "game changer" were uttered. But I will definitely take your advice into consideration.
  18. hookedonthefly

    hookedonthefly Active Member

    I will agree with previous posters that the NextCast lines might be a good option. I have the WA & FF 45 5/6, WA & FF 45 6/7, WA45 8/9, WA55 6/7 and the WA70 8/9. On the right rod, these lines sing.

    Good luck in your quest!
  19. PT

    PT Physhicist

    Are the WA lines designed to turn over heavy tips?
  20. johnnyd

    johnnyd Member

    I can easily cast tips up to 150 grains and fairly large flies on my 8/9 Winter Authorities.