advice for scandi casting.

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by Panhandle, Aug 18, 2009.

  1. Panhandle

    Panhandle Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,103
    Media:
    50
    Likes Received:
    20
    Location:
    Selkirk Mountains, Idaho Panhandle
    I've been skagit casting too long and found it really difficult to elliminate my top hand from the equation, which makes casting off the tip very difficult (scandi style). Is there a way to tape off my top hand so It will force me to use my bottom hand, or another approach? Second question. How does the muscle memory transfer when jumping from technique to technique?
     
  2. speyfisher

    speyfisher Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,111
    Likes Received:
    155
    Location:
    State of Jefferson U.S.A.
    I had a similar problem switching from long belly top hand to skagit style under hand. I had to keep reminding myself that so&so was an old man, with arthritus, and could easily cast skagit style. It aint that hard on you. Keep my arms/elbows in tight to my body. Minimal effort. Make the rod do the work. Someone I know taped a guys arms to his body with duct tape. And then said O.K cast. :D Try doing that with a three foot bungee cord.

    Watch Henrick Mortenson do a single spey using body english only. Also try casting off your other shoulder. Not cack handed, but properly. Less muscle memory. Concentrate on the cast. The brain commands, the body obeys. Because it doesn't know any better than to do as told.
     
  3. herl

    herl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2004
    Messages:
    877
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    the other washington
    Only use your thumb and forefinger on the top grip for awhile - that helped me.
     
  4. Steelie Mike

    Steelie Mike Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    1,607
    Media:
    190
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    Camas, WA
    Home Page:

    This might help Adam. It is a great video.
     
  5. Slipstream

    Slipstream Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2009
    Messages:
    382
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    Goldendale, WA
    I would suggest you try another approach. Since you are learning a new cast, why not learn with your opposite hand? It has no muscle memory or bad habits. When I got my first (and only) spey rod, I realized after the first lesson I had a problem with breaking the old one-hander habits. So I went to the river and just fished left handed. Its not that hard to do, I was surprised! Good Luck, Tom
     
  6. Ian Broadie

    Ian Broadie Flyfishing is so "Metal"

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2005
    Messages:
    671
    Media:
    4
    Likes Received:
    51
    Location:
    Kirkland, Washington
    Home Page:
    Make an "ok" sign when gripping with your top hand and maneuver the rod only with your bottom hand. Start the cast with your hips raise both hands (top hand stops about ear level) before starting your forward cast which consists of pulling the rod but in to your pelvis.

    If you keep your top hand in an "ok" sign during this process you have little choice but to skandi cast as the entire cast will be based off of your bottom hand.

    This can be incorporated back in to your skagit casting and all of a sudden skagit casting 10000 times easier than before.

    :beer2:
     
  7. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    163
    Location:
    Bellingham
    One important thing I learned with the Scandi lines is that they take to single speys very well, almost like they are supposed to be used for this. They can be cast with a double fine but it doesn't seem as natural to the line.

    So try some touch and go single speys. Start with a foot of the scandi head inside the guides. That got me rolling with the different timing when I made the transition from Skagit belly to scandi.
     
  8. mike kinney

    mike kinney Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2007
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    oso wash.
    The most important thing in changing the emphasis of power and hands is to start the cast with the hand you want to finish with. In simple terms push out with the bottom hand this gives you room to use the bottom hand on the way back forward. If you start the cast with the top hand you are going to want to finish with the top hand. MK
     
  9. Bert Kinghorn

    Bert Kinghorn Formerly "nextcast"

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Messages:
    345
    Media:
    4
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Seattle, WA, USA.
    Another Kinney lesson that worked for me:

    Practice with your top hand down at the very bottom of the upper grip, right against the reel seat. Your top hand will be virtually useless there and you will be forced to cast with the lower hand.
     
  10. Slipstream

    Slipstream Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2009
    Messages:
    382
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    Goldendale, WA
    Try casting with your off hand. It will have no muscle memory and no bad habits. I did that when I first learned to spey cast and it was surprisingly simple.
     
  11. Panhandle

    Panhandle Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,103
    Media:
    50
    Likes Received:
    20
    Location:
    Selkirk Mountains, Idaho Panhandle
    Great advice guys, thanks.
     
  12. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    17,894
    Media:
    283
    Likes Received:
    1,712
    Location:
    Kitsap Peninsula
    Hey Pan, maybe you can put your .45 in your top hand crossing over your upper grip allowing for "cool" points but all lower hand control! Just pulling your leg man...:thumb:
     
  13. Erik F. Helm

    Erik F. Helm Frozen in the river, speyrod in hand

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2008
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Pan,
    Lock the upper hand elbow against the side of your body. That will eliminate the tendency to straighten the upper arm, and help to realize Mike Kinney's suggestion to begin and finish with the lower hand. It also makes body english more necessary. Also, at the end of the cast your lower hand should be near your belly button or even lower. It is all mental from there. practice SLOWLY while visualizing the cast through the entire stroke.
    Hope this helps.
    E.
     
  14. Randall Dee

    Randall Dee Castaway

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Cascadia
    Home Page:
    :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  15. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,320
    Media:
    607
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    Boston-Idaho
    Home Page:
    Thanks Mike,

    Very insightful observation. Thanks! I guess this is the way to switch the pivot at the start point.
    I have another question related to this one, I was wondering if the full flex rod are more difficult to get the job done (scandi)? I have tried some full flex action rods with scandi heads. I felt it is a bit awkward... have to open up the loop and exert longer stroke... not a very grace way to do it...
     
  16. mike kinney

    mike kinney Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2007
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    oso wash.
    I don't know about all the rods out there but the meiser and tfo rods that I have had a part in seem to work fine as long as you open up the stroke a little. One thing you have to adjust for is line weight because the American rods that have a fuller flex tend to take at least two lines heavier. MK
     
  17. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,320
    Media:
    607
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    Boston-Idaho
    Home Page:
    Thanks Mike,
    Much appreciated!

    Mark
     
  18. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,859
    Media:
    8
    Likes Received:
    20
    Location:
    Roy, WA
    Mr Kinney's response brings up a good point not only for Yuhina but for Pan's original question which I'd like to throw in here.
    It seems like there's an expectation that we can use our PNW style rods to accomplish classic underhanding casts, and then we're surprised to find they're too slow. Then we're disappointed to find we have to modify the cast away from the very abbreviated, very bottom hand dominant underhand style to get the cast out. But that's what the rod asks for, as Mike pointed out.
    To use a really compact underhand stroke I think you need a real underhanding rod- Meiser S rod, Guideline LeCie or LPXe, Loomis Stinger, Sage Euro, Echos with the quick tip...you know, rods built for that. Otherwise you're driving 16d nails with the heel of a dress shoe, it works but not well. That's been my experience with it so far, anyway.
    The alternative is to modify the casting stroke to accommodate, or seriously underline the rod to make it more snappy.
    BTW, Modern Scandi is quite popular in Europe and has largely replaced pure Andersson style Underhanding in Europe I hear- and Modern Scandi uses a more open stroke, open to the point that it's more similar to longbelly technique than it is to underhanding, at least in certain variations. Shooting head casting has sure come a long way, fascinating stuff!
     
  19. speyghillie

    speyghillie speyghillie

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2005
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    River Spey Scotland
    Hi Speyspaz,
    Still slightly different in most of Europe,
    (Modern Scandi is quite popular in Europe and has largely replaced pure Andersson style Underhanding in Europe I hear-)
    Scandi style speycasting is still such a small market in most of Europe, Traditional style Speycasting makes up almost all the market, because of this companies like Airflo don't even market there Scandi lines and shooting head kits in the UK because of the lack of demand.
    Gordon.
     
  20. DRBfish

    DRBfish New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    portland, or
    I don't think scandi is casting off of the tip. Cast a Guideline rod and it bends down to the cork. I think casting off the tip is a misconseption.
     

Share This Page