An Inconvenient Truth

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by otter, Jun 25, 2006.

  1. 05tacoma Member

    Posts: 246
    Auburn, WA
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    Gore... invented internet, saving us from global warming... what next? World peace? I hope, hope, hope, he runs for president!
  2. 509 New Member

    Posts: 497
    WENATCHEE, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    uh, 509. It was scientists and research who first developed those theories on the floods and tectonics. Eventually, the entire body of peer review journalism came to accept it as fact. Sort of like...global warming.

    But this is a FF forum. So, let's just HOPE you are right and do nothing about Global Warming. I am sure the fish will adapt and evolve. Oops, sorry "evolution" is just a theory by crackpot scientists.[/QUOTE]

    Read my post again....slowly. I did not say do nothing about Global Warming. I said be careful about the "science" and what are you willing to do about it. There is a consensus that the earth is warming. There is debate whether its natural or man-made. There is no doubt in my mind that Kyoto is worthless.

    I am not dependent on Boeing for employment. I use very little fossil fuels. Impacts on me would be minor. They would not be for western Washington and the world. We need to be sure that the dramatic impacts are necessary and actually do work.

    I do believe in evolution. I believe that a liberal arts degree is an evolutionary dead end. That's a hell of an inference......if I don't believe in global warming then I must not believe in evolution!!!

    Here is an brief article on Bretz. You should read some of the books on the subject and ridicule that he had to endure for 50 years before his theories were accepted. Scientific disagreement is fine. Ridicule of ideas is not. My point was that is we are there on the global climate debate.


    http://washingtonhistory.org/wshs/columbia/articles/0105-a3.htm
  3. gt Active Member

    Posts: 2,616
    sequim, WA
    Ratings: +6 / 0
    way too much science from way too many corners of specality to ignore global warming.

    of course, the true believers who just happened to love the color RED, are going to poopoo this whole issue. they will always find some obscure piece of opinion writing to point to to say '...see, it's all make believe...'

    it also just seems to be the case that the folks who choose to paint themselves BLUE or GREEN actually see this for what it is and have tried for some years to beat the drum and start some remediation. but then there is AM radio where all the truth comes from, or perhaps it's the FAUX fantasy network, don't know.

    latest one i was reading is the greenland ice cap, shrinking at a dramatic pace. if this goes, they are estimating a sea rise of TWENTY ONE FEET and a shut down of the gulf stream. hey, i am going to have beach front property pretty soon!

    keep it up, boys and girls, you whippers are in for a very bad time in the very near future combining global warming with the deficit should keep'yah pretty busy right through the next 3 generations or more.
  4. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
    Ratings: +41 / 0
    What if it is 99.9999999 natural? So basically, yes, we are contributing, but anything we can do to 'reverse' or 'slow' it is too little too late. It is is because of natrual cycles, solar flares, natural swamps, valcanoes, forest fires, etc - wouldn't the true environmentalist approach be to let the natuaral process run its course? Wouldnt' the smart thing to do be to start planning right now anyway? So we are expecting huge snow packs in the coming years? Sounds like a good time to invest in the ski lodges. If the sea level is going to rise, invest in some property on the near by hill that will soon be beach front.

    What other ideas do you have to take advantage of the coming climate changes?
  5. smc Active Member

    Posts: 374
    Up River
    Ratings: +25 / 0
    Buy real estate on the moon. :D
  6. Bryan Finney Member

    Posts: 37
    North Bend
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    hmmm. What to do about it, indeed. Here is a start, take my ridiculous tax cut and others that are making over 150k, combine that with the 30b per month in Iraq and invest in the brilliance of american innovation to develop alternative energy sources. (It is way out of my pay grade to say what those alternatives could be.)

    Or maybe I am wrong and our kids will thank us for setting up an economic model based on borrowing money from China to buy oil from Saudi sheiks.

    Back to bigger priorities....like this beaver pond I just discovered off of 90. It rocked on Saturday!
  7. Stephen Rice Senior Member

    Posts: 1,479
    Wasilla, Alaska
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    iagree even if it weren't true and it was all just a theory can we really afford to ignore it? what I am trying to say is even if it was hype, wouldn't it really be a good idea to find alternatives anyway so we can clean up our air and our water, I get sick of looking at that brown haze when the weather gets hot. it just makes sense to find ways that keep us and our planet from getting sick all of the time. IMHO
  8. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
    Ratings: +41 / 0
    First, I'm not denying that there is global climate change. I'm just saying it could be nearly 100% natural. Trying to fix it could be like peeing in the ocean. Not gonna change a thing in the big picture of things. And further, if it IS natural, woulnd't the environmentalist approach be to let nature run it's course?

    As for pollution - I don't see anyone here argueing that we shouldn't try to clean things up.

    I think a direct approach would be much more effective and provide much more tangible results. Most of america isn't interested in watching Al Gore at the movies (even it it was for free). But you find a source of pollution in their backyard \ community, and show the dead fish, sick animals, etc, and you have yourself some ammo and some recruits who'd be willing to step up and fight it. Remember "think globally, act locally". Do something you KNOW will make a difference today, tomorrow, and the future. It is grass roots efforts like that that grow and spread. Wage a successful campaign in your community and others will catch on.
  9. Dan Page Active Member

    Posts: 439
    Yelm, Wa., USA.
    Ratings: +31 / 0
    MY 2 cents:
    It doesn't take much research to see this is mostly not a natural thing happening. We did it. It is running it's course, and maybe it can be alleviated by Earthlings changing their ways.
    It is not likely that Earthlings will greatly change their ways until Mother Nature really puts the hammer down and forces people to deal with the changes that will likely be coming. By then super major natural events will already have played out and people will be mostly dealing with the affects of climate change and finding new ways to live with the different climate. People will then be more tuned in and will make some changes that are less impacting on Earth.
    Personally, I love this planet and the little bit of naturalness it has left. I don't relish the thought of not being able to swing a steelhead fly as the mist of morning hovers over the river and the first light of day breaks over the trees. I am willing to do something to preserve that and restore what's been lost.
    I am not optimistic that things will get better before they get worse, but am not giving up on some changing of direction. We must act locally, but also we need global leaders with the same vision. People will have to come together to pull this off. I wonder if that can happen.
  10. fredaevans Active Member

    Posts: 3,115
    White City, Oregon, USA.
    Ratings: +118 / 0
    Good point NN, save for one thing. The number of 'screens' this is showing is tiny vs. most of the main stream "movies." You have to look at the 'gosinto' (screens showing vs. ticket dollars) to get a real "picture" of how a film is actually doing view wise.

    Good point Chad. I've cut my driving about down to a minimum (saving a hell of a lot of money in the process!). Where I'd drive to the local Albertson's I now walk as it's actually only a few blocks away. Buy what you can carry home in a couple of bags and save the gas. As for fishing, I used to take 'lots' of short trips up to the Rogue, now I plan on doing 'a day.' Actually fishing more, and saving a lot of gas money in the process.
    Fred
  11. Jim Wallace Smells like low tide

    Posts: 5,650
    Somewhere on the Coast
    Ratings: +540 / 0
    We're doomed.:beer1:
  12. chadk Be the guide...

    Posts: 5,057
    Snohomish, WA.
    Ratings: +41 / 0
    I think Al Gore should sit down and chat with Bill Gates and Warren Buffet and the Gates Foundation. That is some serious pocket change that could be used to battle the massive threat of Global Warming. Helping find cures for disease, improving education, etc won't help anyone if we are all dead!!



    "It doesn't take much research to see this is mostly not a natural thing happening. We did it"

    "Mostly"? Do you have a rough percentage? I haven't read as many studies as some of you have, so maybe you can help clarify this for me.
  13. Willie Bodger Still, nothing clever to say...

    Posts: 1,112
    Lynnwood, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
  14. Rory McMahon Active Member

    Posts: 1,615
    lynnwood
    Ratings: +2 / 0
    nature is cyclical, humans could only contribute like .0001% like ChadK said, or it could be more. Theres just really no way to be certain how much we impact it.
  15. Willie Bodger Still, nothing clever to say...

    Posts: 1,112
    Lynnwood, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    At least in the matter of Global Warming. Now, tearing down rain-forests and building huge dams on all of the major rivers etc., that just plain sucks and is much more hazardous to our environment than me having to drive to work 4 days/week.
  16. nick m New Member

    Posts: 51
    Groton, Ma/Walla Walla
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Hello all,
    first post in a while here... can we get past the 'has pollution affected gcc?' question. because it has. period. even the gvt has conceded that humans have affected the climate. but now we must 'verify' it which entails numerous well respected scientists in agreement and a few oil-funded 'scientists' who say its a crock. A few powerful people champion these reports further delaying any chance of anything actually getting done. having taken a few environmental studies and ecology classes i can't really imagine how anyone can honestly believe it's cool to release massive amounts of carbon into the atmosphere and nothing bad will happen. Go take some chemistry, learn the carbon cycle. what's too bad is the people that really need to see this movie are the ones that arent going to.

    Chad K, I will buy you a ticket to this movie. Saying that we cannot alter the present course of things is the most absurdly wrong statement in this thread. US emission levels did not rise significantly between 1990 and 2000 because of the clean air act despite an enormous growth in industry. If our gvt got off its ass, democrats and republicans, and did something productive, results would surely be had. in a nutshell this is really simple. carbon is a green house gas. the earth emits carbon, and then later it is sequestered. there is a balance, that does go up and down (glaciations). right now we are emitting far more carbon than the earth can handle, as well as other insulative gasses. thus we have warming. anyways, im all for acting locally on smaller projects, but hell this is serious. wake up everyone.

    on a more related note, to the site anyways, yesterday i caught my biggest ever largemouth out of my pond. It was 21.5" and i'm guessing about 5 lbs. it took a cork popper. pictures once i develop, i havent gone digital yet.

    Nick
  17. Loteck Joe Over The Hill Gang Member

    Posts: 267
    Liberty Lake, WA.
    Ratings: +1 / 0
    :) We've been blessed with the only lush green planet in our solar system. As far as I know, there is NO fishing on any other planet in our solar system. Earth is made up of 5/8th water. (a rare thing anywhere but here) If we want to go fishing, we need to be good stewards of our water. If we want to live on dry land, we need to be a good steward of dry land. In my book, "Good Stewardship" is defined as (Responsible Ownership) So maybe just maybe, we would want to be careful how we use our blessings. Absolutely NO politics involved here. Just REAL concern.
  18. Willie Bodger Still, nothing clever to say...

    Posts: 1,112
    Lynnwood, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Assuming you mean Carbon Dioxide, because Carbon is not a gas. So, tell me, does anything on earth use CO2? Hmm... maybe plants that take in CO2 and water and produce Oxygen... And air temperature heats water? You think that a warmer atmosphere has that significant an effect on the ocean temperatures? I have no doubt that the earth is warming, but I don't believe there is anything near consensus in the scientific community (at least not from everything that I have read) as to why the earth is warming. The most logical explanation that I have read is a different idea, but this truly is one of those issues that we are not going to come to a consensus on.

    In fact, it's funny how people will bash and bash on how stupid our gov't is (not saying you have done that, btw) and then turn around and say 'It is true, even our gov't says it is true'. Yes, this topic is definitely a hotspot and unfortunately we can't say for sure why it is happening, we do not have the historical data to back up anybody's point. Do we know the temperature (empirically) of the layers and locations of the earth 2k years ago? No. Do we know the various gas levels in the atmosphere from 2k years ago? No. Does that mean we should continue to run amok in our environment? No, we need to be conversation minded, but taking that to extremes and assuming that we can interpolate scientific data back thousnads of years based on maybe 100 years of data when we truly don't understand the base interactions within this world today is absurd. Or so it seems to me.

    wb
  19. nick m New Member

    Posts: 51
    Groton, Ma/Walla Walla
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    the cycle part of carbon cycle refering to changes between gaseous and other states. look up the definition of sequester. carbon is emitted in the form of carbon dioxide, and the ocean and organisms reabsorb much of this carbon. this cycle must have balance. this is why people are all about biodiesel. it's not that it doesnt pollute, it's that it is carbon neutral. the plants used in biodiesel take in the same amount of carbon as is released when the fuel is burned so there is not a net increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide. it takes many thousands of years for dead stuff (carbon) to turn in to the coal and oil that we use. we use it very quickly. thus, emitting huge amounts of carbon dioxide from the burning of fossil fuels is not anywhere near being carbon neutral. which is bad. is that any clearer. i really don't know that much. if you want real science, google james hansen, the leading climatologist at NASA. he knows his stuff and recently has been silenced for trying to express the gravity of the problem. he is a government scientist who understands climate systems better than just about anyone.
  20. Denny Active Member

    Posts: 4,045
    Seattle, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +45 / 0


    Those are interesting points. I find it interesting that many fly fisherpersons like to think of themselves as environmentally conscious and aware and/or wanting to make a difference, but many of us (including myself) drive a gas-guzzling carbon-monoxide gushing truck or SUV. Probably most of us could get away with a smaller car that isn't 4X4. I know I could, but somehow it's phsychologically difficult for me to give up my SUV.

    But, I know I should, and I am seriously looking at getting a different, smaller rig that gets better gas mileage. Because of gas costs. Partially, but primarily because of emissions. It has to start somewhere, and even a little bit helps, right?

    :thumb: