another disturbing impact

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by gt, Feb 15, 2008.

  1. gt

    gt Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2005
    Messages:
    2,616
    Media:
    19
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    sequim, WA
    s-u-r-e, phil and the earth is flat and the moon is made out'a cheese. you are free to believe whatever makes you happy just don't try and pass your 'beliefs' off as FACT, 'cause you are not even in the ball park on this issue.
     
  2. WPEB

    WPEB member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2004
    Messages:
    123
    Media:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Bothell, WA
    Edited
     
  3. gt

    gt Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2005
    Messages:
    2,616
    Media:
    19
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    sequim, WA
    what a debator you must be there phil. presented with fact, after fact, after fact, all you can do is fall back on some inane, obscure rationale, to argue that climate change is all just a 'cycle.'

    sorry buddy, you are totally out of your league on this issue and your continued posts, along with your supporters, make it pretty clear you don't know jack, much less how scientific endevours are conducted.

    now i will signoff from this thread and stop feeding the monkeys.
     
  4. WPEB

    WPEB member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2004
    Messages:
    123
    Media:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Bothell, WA
    Fact? You obviously know little about how science is conducted. You may present examples of the results of the earth warming, but in no way is that mean that the idea that warming is anthropogenic is fact. Facts are hard to come by in science, especially in an idea as complex as this. At best AGW is a hypothesis with little supporting evidence. It is not a theory, but a hypothesis.
    Scientists believing that the warming is anthropogenic in no way makes it a fact. That is called pseudoscience. Providing circumstantial evidence will never make it fact.

    Edited

    I'm done.
     
  5. Mike Wilson

    Mike Wilson Yakbowbw

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2007
    Messages:
    660
    Media:
    22
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Everett, WA
    I will bite and join in for several points.

    1. I was fishing one afternoon and noticed it was the time of day that the Caddis flies swarm in from the forest to lay their eggs on the surface of the water. I wondered how long the insect had been living above ground. One day, two, or maybe a week but I didn't think so. It made me feel very superior to the insect as a life form. The bug’s life cycle does not allow it to see any real change to the world it lives in. No changing seasons, this insect does not even get to meet its offspring. It was great until I looked at the trees and realized they have been living here longer than my entire family. It was then that I began to look at life and climate from a whole different perspective, as an historian.

    2. If I were to treat the earth as a living organism and place its life on a time line how many years is that? Let us just for argument say that it is 3-6 billion years old. If I made a line that is 3 feet long that represents the earth's life line and then tried to place my life line on the same line I would need a microscope. My point being that I am just like the Caddis fly when looking at the scope of the earth's life changes. I have not seen, nor will I see any real changes to the earth in my life time. They say that 90% of the life that has existed on earth is now extinct.

    3. We have been collecting data about the earth and the climates here for maybe 2000-3000 years in some places, and only 200 years in others. Given the scope of change, and the patterns of climate cycles we do not have enough data to be sure about any trend. Changes to the climate may be evolving normally. I can say this because I do know there was over a mile of ice covering my house some 12,000 years ago. I do know that micro continents have docked with North America, and brought Washington State from the ocean floor to the land we now occupy today. I know this will change too, but I will not see the natural evolution of our landscapes.

    4. I know that man is having an impact on the environment. We need to clean up our living practices, because we need to live here too. Our practices have created environments unsuitable for life to occur. I am not sure that the weather is changing because of this, or if it is just going through a normal cycle. What will happen when the next super volcano erupts? Mother Nature’s impact on our living conditions will be drastic, catastrophic! I hope we can survive.

    5. Until something like this happens I plan on living, loving, using the environment, cleaning up after myself, and above all casting a fly. Boys, the earth will get warmer, and it will get colder. I do not think there is a whole bunch we can do about it.... or is there? That is where science comes in. The exploration of life's changes is the key to being prepared for our future. I do not want to jump to any conclusions about this thing called global warming as of yet. Let's collect data for another millennium before we get our panties in a bunch.
     
  6. FT

    FT Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    1,260
    Likes Received:
    109
    Location:
    Burlington, WA
    WPEB,

    I feel I must quote you on this, "Providing circumstancial evidence will never make it a fact." because it is right on.

    gt,

    I find your name calling and disparaging comments directed at people who disagree with you while providing you with evidence as to why they disagree very curious indeed. Doing so is not debating an issue, it is simply an attempt to get the other side angry or intimidated in order to have them be quiet.
     
  7. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,610
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    79
    Location:
    .
    Just heard about the plight of the Hudson Bay Polar Bears on NPR. The talking head said that no matter what change we make now, the current "mess" will be in place for 30 to 50 years in terms of warming temps. At that point the benefits of the changes we make now will begin to show.

    Great news! I await the benefits of the strides we've made in the U.S. starting in the 70s!!! They should be kickin' in riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight abbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbout... NOW! Oooooh... I did feel a little chilly right then:p
     
  8. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    535
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA
    ................Meanwhile, in the studios of NPR, changes that were made in the brain chemistry of many young individuals during the sixties are just now beginning to affect the atmosphere of public broadcasting.......

    :rofl:

    JonB
     
  9. Smooth

    Smooth Guest

    This is quite a thread.
    One thing is obvious:
    Apparently, there are educated idiots in every field.
    Let us assume some of them are right for a moment:

    My questions to them:

    WHAT has anyone got against reducing pollution and caring for the Earth?
    WHAT is wrong with treating this Earth, a closed system, with more respect and less arrogance?
    WHOSE stock do they own that they are trying to keep from losing value?

    What is wrong with them?

    p.s. These are rhetorical questions and require no response.
     
  10. FT

    FT Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    1,260
    Likes Received:
    109
    Location:
    Burlington, WA
    Smooth,

    Eventhough you posted rhetorical questions and don't expect a response I must point out that I have no problem with reducing polution and in fact, think that is a very wise thing to do. However, I do have a problem with the naysayers insistence that CO2 from fossil fuel usage is the big culprit and that it is a polutant. Unfortunately the CO2 released by burning of gas, oil, and coal each year comprises about 1% of the amount released into the atmoshpere each year.

    What? That can't be. Where does all the rest of the CO2 come from? Simple, living animals, insects, and fish who release CO2 with each respiration. And bacterial and decaying plants also release CO2.

    Methane is released in huge quantities by mamals who fart (yes, even us humans) to a far greater degree than that released by use of fossile fuels.

    And because I have not seen quantitative evidence and have only seen assumptive "evidence" (i.e. I/we done think this is what is happening, but without any true quantitative evidence) linking the use of fossil fuel to warming, I am very skeptical of pronouncements that man's activity is the cause.

    Heck, just yesterday I see on the weather report that although there is a La Nina in operation in the Pacific Ocean, the jet stream for the last 2 weeks has been following an El Nino flow pattern. Why? The meteorologists don't know. They are calling in an anomalie because it isn't following the expected flow pattern across the North Amercian continent. Oh that's right, we have caused this to happen because we have used fossil fuels.
     
  11. Smooth

    Smooth Guest

    OK, fair enough... here is a not so rhetorical question for you:
    If you believe Human activity has no effect on climate, why do you think it is a good idea to reduce emissions?

    Do you think people will reduce emissions if there is no consequence? That is what you are essentially saying, "it is a good idea but we really don't have to because we really aren't affecting anything"

    The Earth can only scrub a given amount of carbon from the atmosphere in a given time period.
    Assuming your figure of 1% is accurate, how can you be sure that same 1% does not cause the Earth's climate to go past a tipping point?

    I choose to side with prudence and shun attitude that there is no, and will be no, consequence for our actions.
     
  12. gt

    gt Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2005
    Messages:
    2,616
    Media:
    19
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    sequim, WA
    that's IT..................


    climate change is a direct result of cow farts!
     
  13. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,610
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    79
    Location:
    .
    Ah but they do...

    We should clean up everything we reasonably can. We should even be a little unreasonable about some things that don't adversely affect us too much. Mandate tankless waterheaters in all new construction and halt production of tanked waterheaters? Mandate solar panels on all new construction? Just read about the new battery technology developed for cameras and phones. sounds like it's not long before full electric cars are feasible.

    The problem is both sides need to give. The devout "we're responsible" group needs to accept 2 things.

    1. Part of climate change is natural, and there is no way to nail down how much of it is.

    2. While we should "lead", with the rest of the developed world, no matter how much C02 we cut back (by far not the worst gas in the equation by the way. Google methane before arguing), we can't change anything. The developing world is on a pace to outrace anything we ever did to the environment. And they won't change their ways unless WE pay. Reparations, cutting back our usage to a common percapita carbon footprint for ALL world citizens... Things we can't afford and can't live with. Do some research on some of the issues and demands before arguing.

    The other side? It has grown fat and stupid on "production" and "consumption" streams of income. It needs to move on to R&D and a development orientation. Understand that that new waterheater we're mandating has to be developed, patented, licensed by somebody and it might as well be us! Money and progress can go hand in hand.

    But neither side is apparently capable of change at the moment. Which as I said isn't really a problem, because nothing US citizens can do can change anything. And Japan, Europe, Israel, they'll be more than happy to work on the technology, and get the bucks... So no big deal. Besides India and Pakistan are going to convert themselves into a huge dust cloud any year now, and that should drop the temps a little:(
     
  14. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    535
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA
    Clarification:
    I only posted in this thread because I thought it had finally reached the humorous stage.
    My mistake.:confused: or...?

    JonB
     
  15. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,610
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    79
    Location:
    .
    Yup! Your mistake. Some of us have a sense of humor. Others don't. It should be pretty clear whos who. Humor does not indicate the end of the serious discussion... Although I think the residual effect of sixties and seventies indulgences struke in the late eighties... So your post, while humourous, is inaccurate, and next time please cite a refereed, scholarly journal when providing a timeline on hippie burnout.:p None of that O'reilly crap. We're men of science!
     
  16. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    535
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA
    You seem to be assuming hippie burnout as the root cause of the NPR syndrome. I was referring to the alleged chromosome damage caused by excessive LSD usage in the 60's. The offspring of those who (over)indulged in the hallucinogenic drugs of that era should just now be coming into power in the public broadcasting hierarchy.
    Of course I have little or nothing to support this hypothesis but I do have a documentary film in the works.:cool:

    JonB
     
  17. FT

    FT Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    1,260
    Likes Received:
    109
    Location:
    Burlington, WA
    gt,

    Yes, we should reduce polutants (although it has not really been determined through observable data if CO2 is really a harmful polutant since it doesn't harm you if you breathe it and plants use it to produce sugars); however, so should the rest of the countries in the world and they should do so at their own expense, not with our US tax dollars. Philster did a good job a summing up why.

    However, we also need to quit the dogmatic it is all man's use of fossil fuels that is causing the temps to go up; temps are going up faster that at any time in the history of the earth; and saying we have reached or are close to the the tipping point because we really don't know if any of these are true, and admit that folks are only guessing as to what caused those changes.
     
  18. BFK

    BFK Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    332
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    North Sound, Wash.
  19. Brookie_Hunter

    Brookie_Hunter aka Dave Hoover

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,352
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    120
    Location:
    Phinney Ridge, Seattle, WA
    they've covered all bases....that's a sign of global warming too.
     
  20. FT

    FT Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    1,260
    Likes Received:
    109
    Location:
    Burlington, WA
    BFK,

    This can't be right because nearly everything the media, newspapers, and news magazines report is that temps are continuing to go up at record rates. I mean, didn't Al Gore get the Noble Prize for his work in bringing this great problem to the attention of the public and political leaders? The data showing temps have gone down around the world must have gotten corrupted, since all scientists working in the area of climate are in consensus that global warming is happening as a result of man's activities.

    I suspect that this propaganda about world temps going down is a conspiracy of the right wing wackoes, Bush, Cheney, and big oil because only they and those brainwashed by them would think otherwise in the face of all the computer model evidence showing how things are going to continue heating up, right?
     

Share This Page