Bugnuts/ Jason, Cactus was making the argument that the US didn't play much of a roll in Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war and that simply is incorrect. Were you both around during the Iran/Iraq war, the Iran hostage situation, or the Iran-Contra affair? Did you pay attention to it if you were? The US has been manipulating the middle east for decades, and the Bush administration continues to manipulate US citizens to believe them. They're relying on the majority of the US to continue to believe the spin that they've put on everything, from their position on global warming, the changes to the ESA, the changes to the EPA, and to the war in Iraq to name a few. Should we have ignored Saddam now? Absolutely. No WMD's or links to Al-Queda. He wasn't a threat at the time of the invasion. We could have built world support, like GWB first proposed but then later dismissed, and this may have not cost the lives, dollars, and embarrassment that it has. The U.N. inspectors were in Iraq and left only when we were about to drop bombs on their positions. We've lost ground in Iraq and we've lost ground on the world stage because we invaded a country on false precepts. We're supposed to be the good guys, but we've not lived up to the ideals that you each have. We've damaged our relationship with most of the european countries and it is for that reason that Bush has plans to visit them in the near future to try to repair some of those relationships. Should we have invaded Afghanistan? Absolutely. We had good intelligence that Al-Queda was there and we took out the taliban. We had overwhelming world support immediately after 911 but that support quickly evaporated. We lost our opportunity to get Osama, after nearly 4 years, he's still at large. It may be uncomfortable for both of you to look at US involvment in these matters , but this is no conspiracy, there are plenty of sources that back up the stuff I've posted, look at the bibliography at the end of the article. Feel free to show an alternate opinion and back it up if you can. I'm certainly willing to examine it and even change my mind, but only if it's true. I would really love to believe the US is only out there to do the right thing, but the facts in the case just don't lead to that conclusion. You have a couple of choices, you can believe whatever GWB proclaims or you can seek out the truth and make up your own mind. Are you looking to find the truth or are you content with fairy tales? If any of this is rubbing you the wrong way its because you are looking squarely at information that GWB is not going to provide. Will any of my arguments persuade you? Probably not, you've already made up your mind, at the same time, maybe, if you had digested the information from the factual-historical past, maybe you would have a different opinion than you do, then again, maybe not. Right now, Republicans would love everyone in the country to just sit back and not bring focus to the errrors related to Iraq, it's too painful for them to look at the mistakes. The greatest lesson that I learned in college was to question everything, and not to take things at face value. Here are two quotes from from Carl Sagan that I think apply. "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. it is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.)" "Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires intelligence, vigilance, dedication and courage. But if we don't practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us -- and we risk becoming a nation of suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along."