Anyone else moving away from the skagit system this winter?

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by James Waggoner, Oct 22, 2010.

  1. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    Shotgunner,

    This is interesting because as best I recall from open channel hydraulics is that water velocity (V) is greatest at about 0,6 to 0.7 of total column depth, with the water on the surface being slower, and the water near the substrate being the slowest due to friction losses accounted for by Manning's n (substrate roughness coefficient) . If that is true, then an intermediate line that cuts through the water surface tension and sinks a few inches is actually being pulled by a V greater than the surface V. This is all the more puzzling now that Golfman65 says it's noticeably slower through the swing. And then there is the greater difficulty of mending an intermediate line or head - which you apparently feel in unnecessary - and the relative ease of mending floating line.

    I don't understand how distance is a factor, but my max cast is probably 80'. At that distance I can mend my Skagit head up to the junction with the sinking tip generally. Having the ability to mend seems to allow me to slow my swing to the slowest extent possible at any given swing angle and current velocity.

    My office mate is an hydraulic engineer, so I'll try to ask him about the assumptions I wrote at the beginning of this post. Maybe I'm missing some important physical parameter that affects the speed of the swing. But given the factors as I'm considering them, I hope I'm making clear why an intermediate line swinging slower is not intuitive to me.

    Sg
     
  2. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Whoa. Sg, what about your V on the varied diameters of line? A floating beer can taper skagit versus a more tapered intermediate? I have no idea, none at all, but the one variable I'd wonder about is the force of the water on the line and it seems that a fatter line would tend to be more influenced. I have cast a full sinking scandi head and some things about it not being on the surface seemed appealing, but being a poor caster, getting it up and moving for cast after cast was troublesome for my current skill level. The things you guys discuss and the depth to which you discuss it can be pretty dang amazing.

    Every day is like a biology, physics and engineering lesson.
     
  3. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    Mumbles,

    Do you mean the effect of force (F) on line diameter (V being the force)? Yeah, that's a consideration. F as a function of V is resisted differently. Diameter is one variable; specific gravity might be another, that could take some head scratching. Specific gravity, or line density, I think determines the amount of the line subjected to the force. The floating line is only affecting by the part from the water's surface to the bottom of its diameter, whereas the intermediate, being fully sunk below the water's surface, it totally affected by the force. So far, all factors are telling me that the slower swing is achieved with the floating line, even a beer can, in contrast to the intermediate, which sinks far enough to be totally affected. However, a detailed calculation of force on line diameter probably necessitates bringing geometry into the calculation. Something like tangent (to the circular line diameter) and cosine to the direction of the force, and now I'm more confused than when I began.

    Might have to do some in situ testing, maybe at Hoh Down?

    Sg
     
  4. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Sg, you know I'm a dumb monkey but here is something I have seen to be true. This year on the Yakima (a river so I'm not talking space) I rescued two objects from the water. The first was a full beer can that was on the surface of the water. The second was an open can, beneath the surface in the water column and it had filled totally with water from the river. I realize that the floater was not as fully in contact with the water on all aspects like the one a foot or so beneath the surface. Both were in the same current seam. I noticed both of them at the head of an island where I had beached the boat for the girls to eat lunch. I chased and retrieved both. The one beneath the surface was moving downriver notably slower. I have no idea why, but it was.

    Hoh down experimentation, schedule permitting I'm up for that. I can't catch any damn fish anyway. Thanks for the thoughts on hydrodynamics.
     
  5. _WW_

    _WW_ Fishes with Wolves

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    If you guys are gonna be splitting hairs that fine at the Hoh Down - well - I ain't goin'! But since we ain't there yet I am wondering about one thing.

    Salmo, I can see that you have gone through some tremendous mental calisthenics and near godlike mathamatics while probing what seems a simple intuitive situation. And I commend you sir for giving it a go and trying to get it all worked out...but I think you are missing one very important factor.

    The angle of the dangle....
     
  6. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    ....Also the friction of a contoured, rocky and busted up bottom will produce more friction than air. That's why mending is a must with floating lines, the floating sections always wants to get ahead of the sunk tip/leader/fly, so to eliminate belly and the speed up caused my a downsteam belly one needs to mend.

    Does that makes sense with out getting into mathmatics...or am I missing something?

    James.
     
  7. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

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    After reading this jibberish I wonder how the hell anyone has ever caugth a freakin' steelhead? Might have something to do with ww's dangle but for some reason I doubt it. Perhaps it might have something to do with the amount of time spent fishing and not worrying to much about how fast the damn line is moving.
     
  8. shotgunner

    shotgunner Anywhere ~ Anytime

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    Salmo G, I've always enjoyed your postings and will continue to do so. I tip my cup to the master of the mend.

    All I have to offer for now is that the head drops in more than a few inches. Theres a 15' Hi-D tip dragging it downwards, a fast intermediate wont put up much resistence.

    From my experience over the past several seasons I've fished them, and related with many others fishing them, theres just to much praise and satisfaction to be a simple marketing smoke screen..

    Again, I'm not promoting any product or method as 'better'. I have and use both.

     
  9. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    My meats got heat!

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  10. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    WW,

    The angle of the dangle isn't forgotten. It's just that there's no way in hell I can remember the geometric equation that describes the reduced swing speed as the length of line increases and the angle between the point where the line lands and the dangle decreases. Seems like as the math got higher, I sunk lower. But this shouldn't keep you from the Hoh Down. Au contraire; it should encourage you to come and partake. Hell, we can't fish drunk anyway, might as well do math experiments. Mumbles will be official note taker.

    Shotgunner,

    Thanks for contributing. No doubt I'm overthinking like Kerry asserts. Still it's an interesting consideration for us analytical types.

    Sg
     
  11. ak_powder_monkey

    ak_powder_monkey Proud to Be Alaskan

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    my skagit line sucks for ice fishing... just saying... You guys are lucky to be able to cast to no fish
     
  12. Brady Burmeister

    Brady Burmeister Active Member

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    :beer1:I want to thank Mumbles for saving that beer.:beer1: You're a hero in my book.
     
  13. stilly stalker

    stilly stalker Tuna sniffer

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    the angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the meat
    I don't even fish a two hand, but if people are stressing out over all these little details, and still only making 80 foot casts maybe I will just stay single hander, I can cast 80 feet already ;)
     
  14. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

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    With 15 feet of t-14 and a large rabbit tied on the end of that single hander? Sure you can.
     
  15. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    ...over and over again, with trees or high bank at your back, in two fluid motions?

    Besides, it's the little details thats makes us Fly Fisherman; We are all about the details, the presentation and for some the Karma. In an effort to catch a truly beautiful prize, most of us have caught "steelhead" a thousand times over in our minds...and when we do, there's is no greater satisfaction then watching it swim free. Yes, we are a strange and meticulous breed of fisherman.

    I've heard gear guys will debate what's better "lemon Joy, or WD-40" to put on there lures...is that for real?
     
  16. stilly stalker

    stilly stalker Tuna sniffer

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    Im just jealous I don't have a two hander....yet. I definitely see the benefits, you guys are just so sensitive.
    I can cast a big lead eyed intruder all day on my 15 foot 7.5 inch/second head. But I definitely need backcast room
    At least WD-40 is food grade, and the undecane and tridecane in it are similar to molecules produced by living things, so it acts like a scent. Thats why sturgeon fisherman like it so much.There is a rumor that WD40 is fish oil based, but I can't find anything to back those claims up.
    Lemon joy is to mask your scent, with little added benefits. Im not saying its cool to put these on anything, just saying
     
  17. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

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    Stilly,

    I'm just giving you crap. I have a shooting head line I built for an 8 weight single that I can throw some decent line with and can probably cast a small rodent on the end of a sink tip 80 feet with it. Problem is my elbow gives out long before the end of the day comes along. I can take that same rodent and sink tip tied on the end of an 8 weight two hander and cast it all day long without tearing my elbow up.
     
  18. stilly stalker

    stilly stalker Tuna sniffer

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    Once I get my hands on a two hander I might never look back...thisI know. I am really jealous whenI see people working the water, say at reiter, and bombing out 80 foot casts while I have to settle for 30 or 40 foot roll casts because I have no backcast room. Similarly on the Cowlitz at blue creek, I can definitely think of many other places where it would be great to have one.
    Sometimes though, I think it could be a hinderance. I don't know if anyone else here fishes the tiny tree lined brushy rivers onthe OP like the Lyre or the Hoko, but I think a 13 foot rod would just be a major pain in the ass.
    But Im way off topic now, sorry guys.
     
  19. golfman65

    golfman65 Guest

    salmo your forgetting x2 and x4 of line to water contact.

    so your equation is wrong..

    the intermediate with no manipulation is 20-30% slower traveling through the same section of water on the same river at the same time....just is so slap that beitch behind you for not giving you proper equation...or is his name Al Gore?

    All that said, arguing over which hammer is going to pound that nail but not having a board to put it in makes the porridge cold all the same..
     

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