Are they lures or steelhead flies?

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by headstrong1, Dec 1, 2003.

  1. headstrong1

    headstrong1 youngish old guy

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    My karma is really going to suffer for this one, the negative energy this post inspired was unintended. I do not deny that I consider myself a purist of sort Bob, and I am proud of it, perhaps like you. I would not try to convert the next guy to flyfishing- because there are plenty of us jerknuts out there already preaching our greatness. I mean everyone knows we're elitist - hisory is not on our side. Like the missionaries trying to kill native religions to convert them to Jesus- it does more harm than good. I am not always proud to be associated with flyfishing. My feeling is those pipe toting chalk stream guys need a good rousing now and again- some sort of rough comment from a rural feller such as myself to get their blood moving a little. mAybe a good kick in the a$$. Yet I subscribe to many of their beliefs- C&R, barbless, etc etc. I keep myself sane by telling myself that at least I don't have any money, so I can't possibly be as big a jerk as that pompous orvis dude. Its a love-hate self-loathing contradiction. Everything is.
     
  2. pwoens

    pwoens Active Member

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    that fly, uhh I mean lure, is awesome!! Where can I get a propeller from?? ;)

    ~Patrick ><>
     
  3. Stephen Rice

    Stephen Rice Senior Member

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    I used to live in Penna and I know the Chalk Streams you talk of. I have fished the Brandywyne and French Creek. And let me tell you if you think the fly fishermen out there are pompous snobs you are right for the most part ! (ha betch ya thought I was going to disagree) but one thing most of you out here don't realize is that most of those flyfishing snobs out there would give up alot to be in the spots we are in out here. This "is" where the fishing is at. When we talk of bringing in Trout or Steelhead averaging 12 to 16 inches and call them "small" most east coast guys choke on that! while they have there snobbish ways, there is no way they could compare the the fishing we have here! We are envied on the east coast although quietly because I guess it may be a macho thing not to admit an average size for trout may be 8 to 10 inches and huge would be 14". I say give them there purist elist attitude because I know we out here live in "the Best fly fishing spot in the world" Yes I said it. I believe it's the best and I wouldn't trade it for anything.and I hope I never take it for granted. Here's to Washington !
    Steve
     
  4. sjterry

    sjterry Sr. Lurker

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    Where do you fish for trout around here where you consider 16 inches small? (other than Rocky Ford or the Yakima) 16 inches is a good trout for most Washington rivers in my experience. And, a day full of 11-13 inches is a good day for native trout in any west side river. (I'm happy if I get 6 or 8 fish over 13 inches from the Snoq. or any of its tribs. in a good day of fishing.) If you consistently catch trout (not SH, Sal. or SRC's) bigger than 14 inches, you have found much better water than I have. That said, we do live in a great place to fish. Having spent some time in the upper mid-west where chucking a slinky and shrimp with a fly rod is considered fly fishing for SH, I wouldn't trade it either.
     
  5. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

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    bob,

    first of all, fishing a fly rod in no way means one is a better fisherman than someone fishing conventional gear. that is 100% nonsense. flyfishing is one technique in the arsenal. it can be tougher in some conditions, but i guarantee that many of the "elitist" fly fishermen wouldn't hold up one hour gear fishing the ocean with me and the guys i fish with. fly fishing is a great way to catch fish but to dismiss other fishermen as being less skilled, less educated (the reading quip), or poorer is not only elitist, but plain @#$%$ nonsense. if you think the $500 fly rod makes you more skilled than the guy with cheaper equipment... you may be the manufacturers dream customer, but you are quite frankly full of yourself. you are indeed a snob, no matter how much you profess to not be one. it is truly disgusting behavior, and it's no wonder so many gear fishermen look down on fly fishermen with that kind of attitude.

    some of the best fishermen i know and have had the pleasure of fishing with don't flyfish, and that's a fact. you may think you're better as a fisherman, but your thoughts make you a worse person and after reading that i'm actually a little ashamed to be grouped together with you as a flyfisherman.

    chris
     
  6. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    Bob - that's the whole problem right there. You are defining what makes a person a 'better fisherman' in your own ambigious terms.

    After all the hours dedicated to fishing and learning about fishing - I would hope you have been able to eventually grow into at least a 'good fisherman'. But only good at what skills you practiced and learned about. But many gear, bait and other types of fisherman manage to put in the time, study books\articles, and perfect their perferred method of luring fish to bite. The equipment used and clothes worn have nothing to do with it. In fact, I personally have more respect for those who are truely masters at catching fish - while using the lowest budget gear they can. But of course - catching ability is only part of the equation. The other attributes of a responsible, respectiful sportsman need to be considered as well.
    Why would you expect that you were a better fisherman than your new friend just becuase his gear and attire was more simple than yours? I sure hope you didn't make that assumption just based on gear and clothes. Good fisherman are good fisherman. A good dry fly fisherman is a good dry fly fisherman (but maybe only on a lake but not a river). A good indicator\nymph fisherman is a good fly fisherman. A good spoon fisherman is a good spoon fisherman. Being good is being able to fish the gear\method of your choice, and find a way to consistently intice fish to bite while being a good steward of the environment.

    As for my earlier commnets - they were not directed at you, but rather the whole concept of 'purist' fly fisherman.

    I don't doubt that you are good at the type of fishing you prefer. Simply being a fly fisherman doesn't make you a snob. Thinking you are a better fisherman because you are better at YOUR very specific method(s) (and you spend more money on gear and clothing) is pretty self centered and elitist. Many other fly fisherman like myself feel differently and don't want to be lumped in with the 'purists'.

    By the way, had a great time on the river this morning with another board member. We didn't judge eachothers clothes or technique, we just enjoyed ourselves :thumb
     
  7. Stephen Rice

    Stephen Rice Senior Member

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    Sorry I wasn't clear enough. when I said Trout or "Steelhead" averaging 12 to 16 inches" I was including Steelhead into the picture. Which is really just a trout. and I if you wanna know I have fished Merrill lake and caught browns 12 to 18 inches. and the Yakima or the rocky ford of course and Lake Chopaka,(there are some big fat bastages there!)and lake Chelan and for Sea runs any where on the coast or along the Columbia... that's just off the top of my head I am sure the guys out there could tell you more (if there not secret spots). Also when I fish I usually throw back anything under 12 inches and I only keep one or maybe, maybe two. I am not into catching 20, 30 fish in a day. I don't see the point to it because I am the only one that's going to be eating the fish. I feel really successful if I catch 5 in one day and darn awesome if I get one over the 13 inch mark. but I don't consider that a big fish, Average for a trout yeah, but big not hardly.
    Ain't Washington Great !
    Steve
     
  8. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Your Preferred Olympic Peninsula Fly Fishing Guide

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    Chris- check your personal messages.
     
  9. wet line

    wet line New Member

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    Chad, I thought we were pretty elite this morning! What with both of us having new 8 wts with new reels and lines! Heck if someone would have come along he could have thrown $350 at us and he could have probably walked away with both set ups! And we know they are good set ups because we both caught the same branch LOL
    My point: The best equipment in the world does not make one the best fisherman. A particular fly is no more pure ethically than another. A flyrod is no better than the person using it and the ethics the fisherman applies to himself.
    By the way I had a hookup about a half hour after you left, right in front of the fly eating tree. A group of fish moved up that were really active! It took it on the start of the swing right on top and pretty sure was fair hooked. A few heavy headshakes and it bolted and popped loose.
     
  10. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    If anything I have ever written either here or in anything I have ever authored elsewhere that suggests I judge a fisherman or a person by the clothes they wear, let me set that little bit of junk straight: No, of course not! Nor does Mr. Maxwell I would presume.
    The whole point is being missed here; this is not about snobery or elitism in any sense.
    It is about evolution or to use a word much more easy to understand "change." We change as we grow older, as our interests grow, and our skills change with this maturing. That's it. Nothing more. Make a huge thing of all this but the kernel of the corn is in the word change.
    Having fished all methods, particularly gear, I find fly fishing more fun, more effective in getting done what I want to do. What I want to do is enjoy.
    The spots I fish are mostly very secret; sometimes I fish all day without encountering anyone. Were my desire to put on the snob, I would have to change venues. I don't know as I've ever met very many flyfishermen who were snobs. They are almost always very expert in their ways, very concerned and caring individuals about the environment, and just damn nice people. That's one of the reasons why I hang out here.
    I don't understand this venom about snobs. Where does it come from? Certainly, you can't be so angry just because of me. I'm not that important. It must be you've got a ton of others on your agenda. Where did you meet them?
    Every now and again, we get a group of gear guys, I guess, who jump in here, take some shots at the forum and its members, and then leave.
    Guess I need to dial up some gear sites and piss on everyone for a bit and then run when the shjits hits the fan.
    Bob, the T'ain't worth it. :beathead
     
  11. Nailknot

    Nailknot Active Member

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    Bob, I reckon there are a couple big "ghosts" out there frightening fly fishers in this part of the world. The first is this fear of being labeled a snob. Elitism doesn't play well out here in Warshingtun and the fear of being labeled such concerns many a local fly guy, or so it seems. The second ghost is this idea that popular media is driving hundreds, thousands, millions even! of ill-informed newbie fly fishers to our rivers destroying them in the process. Of course these newbies have no knowledge or commitment to either the fish or the "sport." I think both of these fears appear mostly in the mirror and that is why they make so many appearances on boards like this.
     
  12. Old Man

    Old Man Just an Old Man

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    Hey Dave,what ever happened to the buddy thing. I didn't even get a invite to go with you guys. Bad Dave:p

    Jim
     
  13. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    Bob - sorry if I came accross more harsh than I intended to. Hard to really reflect my tone in a short post. I am not bitter, angry, or even 'scared of ghosts' whatever that is supposed to mean... I was just playing along with your original post in which you started out by admitting might stir things up a bit. I just took the bait and played the game with you. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. You have ideas, I have ideas. This is a good place to exchange thoughts, ideas and opinions. In this context - I don't really believe there is a right or wrong 'answer' here. Just ideas. Hopefully we can continue to have a civil dialogue as I think there is probably some middle ground yet to be discussed. But like other very personal topics - maybe we just have to agree to disagree at some point. But please don't think I have any anger or hard feelings - just some different ideas...
     
  14. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    Jim - we went to a spot that required a hike to get to. Last few times you went to spots like that with us, you asked not to be invited again... Next time :beer2
     
  15. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    I'm with you on that Nail knot, right down the line and well put.

    Chadk--Hey, no problem bud. You always have the right to disagree and be respected for it. Civility is way important in our lives.
    No feathers are ruffled, no lines drawn in the sand.
    If I were to meet a fly fisherman, and I have, who thought he was more "worthy" than I, then I would be pissed off as well.
    Most of them, when it comes to skill, are better than me, however.
    Bob, the Only Average, If That.:professor
     
  16. Nailknot

    Nailknot Active Member

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    ChadK, a follow up to my post, which was not directed at you. By "ghosts" I mean fears that appear in the mind but not in reality. In my experience this area has the most down to earth, hard working fly fishing scene I've been around. In other words- the opposite of what might be defined as "snobbery." Elitism? Possibly, but only in the way that comes about by working very hard. Maybe "attitude" would be a better description. My reference to the mirror was meant to explain why these topics seem to arise on a regular pattern. Most of us want to be sure we are not perceived as being "elitist fly fishers" or "newbies" as defined by some more experienced fishers or our own concepts defined via media or wherever. Nothing wrong with that type of self-relection. The fact is that many/most fly fishers do share some sensibilities about fish preservation and fishing style (an ethic maybe, not to be confused with "ethics"). Saying so shouldn't get you labeled as an "elitist." Especially from your peers, particularly here, and specifically when referring to Bob. Just my thoughts. Back on topic- Maxwell isn't saying anything that hasn't been said before. I see his choices as that, choices. A code he follows. More power to him for his committment and thinking and fishing experience. His views don't make me angry in the way that social "elitism" does in a larger cultural sense. Maybe he could be considered extreme, in the way that some mountaineers climb Everest without O2, or anyone that pushes the limits. Maxwell is just writing his story. I personally really dig those personalities, even if they hardly reflect my own fishing style or ideals.

    I have two fresh packages of propellers just arrived from Bass Pro Shops. I plan to tie some junk up. Just so nobody thinks I'm an elitist. :)
     
  17. wet line

    wet line New Member

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    Jim, have you washed those wool socks yet? I know they scare the fish away:rofl :rofl :rofl
     
  18. wet line

    wet line New Member

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    Bob, I personally took your posts on this particular thread tongue in cheek. The key to my thinking was using dynamite!
    It seems like when the rivers get blown out and everyone is sitting around and feel a need to start flogging it happens here rather than on the water!
    So if you got the dynomite I got the net and we will just go out and touch some off and see how many we can snag when they float up to the top! Of course we will only use dries that wake and swing them in the most traditional manner! By the way no luck on those green butt things I tied up and sent you a sample. Well not quite true, a 15 inch cutt smashed it before the rivers blew out. Definately a retarded suicidal fish!

    Dave
     
  19. papafsh

    papafsh Piscatorial predilection

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    Holy whatever!

    After sloshing through 4 pages of this delightful reparte' I'm beginning to wonder if anyone has caught a fish lately? looks like we may have a bit too much time on our collective hands....hummmm?

    I was off work today so got to spend most of it at various locations on the upper Sky (Gold Bar and above) Didn't get so much as a bump though.

    On the other hand, I decided to pay a visit to a place I haven't seen in a while....Reiter...gasp!....Pond!

    The hatchery parking lot had 27 vehicles in it...O'boy...walked down to the pool and, yup..you guessed it, Steelhead were everywhere! hanging from limbs and bushes, flopping around in the sand and being slaughtered one after the other. Now these are hatchery 'brats so no big deal. Even saw a pretty nice Chum landed and released. I counted 19 dead fish in the 1/2 hour I watched.

    Just thought I'd share this with you guys. I know, I know....it ain't quality fishin' like we are used too, but man those low brow, gear chuckin' fish killin' slob's sure where having a great time bending rods with all those steelhead!

    Most of 'em were using weight forward slinky lines, with corky/yarn flies or cured egg/shrimp lures.

    LB:beathead
    :eek :rolleyes
     
  20. Fish Stick

    Fish Stick New Member

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    Have ya' ever heard such a lot of hot air expended on such a trivial topic? I say fish how you like to fish, provided it's legal. If that's not challenging enough (...and you like challenges) then simply start deducting advantages until you feel satisfied with the result. Screw anyone who looks down on you because they think they're playing the game on a more challenging or 'sporting' level. It's YOUR game, after all.

    DP:smokin
     

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