NFR Canada's ANWR

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by coonrad, Jan 2, 2006.

  1. coonrad

    coonrad New Member

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    If you want to go fishing in Alberta you might want to plan your trip now why you still have a chance :eek:

    The media gives much press to the contentious issue of drilling for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. In Alberta however, it's a done deal for a much more impactful form of resource extraction. The mining of oil sands. An energy intensive and environmentally devastating form of turning bitumen in to oil.

    Quote above and some of the photos from this link http://www.technologyreview.com/NanoTech/wtr_16059,318,p1.html

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    From the NYT:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/09/i...tml?ex=1136437200&en=9574175b11e385d0&ei=5070

     
  2. nomlasder

    nomlasder Active Member

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    They have known about this for many years, and have on purpose been slow to develope. I heard a comment on the news the other day, " Canada has the largest reserve of oil in the world and we are sitting right next to the largest consumer"

    What you never hear about, is the Naval Oil reserve are West of Prudoe Bay that is about 1/2 again as big as ANWR. Anyone been to the Collville River?
     
  3. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    The only "Navel Oil Reserve" I'm aware of is shale oil deposits in Colorado, Wyoming and Utah. It's estimated reserves are something like 1.5 trillion barrels of oil or more; not all of it is recoverable. It was being developed in the 1970's and 1980's before the Saudis opened up the tap and reduced crude prices. Prices have to be above $25/barrel to make recovery economically feasible.
     
  4. ray helaers

    ray helaers New Member

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    I thought the current price was over $50/barrel.
     
  5. Stew McLeod

    Stew McLeod aka BigMac

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    I worked in the oil industry in Alberta for 10 years. Raping of the earth is nothing new (not that I condone it). The tar sands up in the Fort McMurray area have always been a oilman's mecca of sorts - they were just waiting for the price of oil to catch up to the cost of driving the bitumen out of the sand. Back in the 90's the magical price was $40 a barrel before it was profitable - looks like we're there now.

    As far as booking your fishing trip, in my opinion, there are little worries since rivers like The Bow, Crowsnest, Oldman, Ram, Elk and such are not threatened by this (that doesn't mean that they haven't been effected in the past by other exploration and development).

    'Mac
     
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  6. gt

    gt Active Member

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    don't know if you are aware of the shale oil deposits beneath the pot holes in central WA. BLM is scrambling, and has been for the last 4 years to clarify who owns what mineral rights. leasing by various development companies is underway right now. get ready for the rape of that part of the state.

    same scenario, cost of extraction has now become profitable.
     
  7. Stew McLeod

    Stew McLeod aka BigMac

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    With technologies like horizontal drilling, hopefully they can minimize the impact to the environment.

    The only thing I can say is at least this country has, relatively speaking, stringent controls on drilling. It could be worse like over seas.

    'Mac
     
  8. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    It is! But I imagine the oil companies are waiting awhile before they start to develop the oil. They lost their shirts in the 1980's when the price of oil dropped dramatically and are a little shy about jumping in too soon.
     
  9. In_too_deep

    In_too_deep Member

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    Most of the oil sands developments are strip mines, just about the worst eyesore possible. However, there is no impact on the fishing conditions, and it is not a wilderness area refuge.
     
  10. mdjm66

    mdjm66 Member

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    The biggest concern is how they are going to be transporting the bitumen to get it refined into oil, as well, 3% of Canada's emissions come from Fort Mac.
    No wildlife refuge up there, but, they are still raping the land to sell to the Chinese....
     
  11. Robert Engleheart

    Robert Engleheart Robert

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    Oil @ $91 today.MDJM66 called it. Apparently CA is getting ready to intensify "Fracking", one impact is it requires massive water to inject with added chemicals into the well. Sourcing the water and disposal of spent water with added chemicals is the $64 million question.
     
  12. ribka

    ribka Active Member

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    Thanks for the reasoned respone

     
  13. mdjm66

    mdjm66 Member

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    Lived in Alberta for the first 37 years of my life, even did some work up in Fort McMurray (where the oil sands are).
    The great stream fishing is in most of the foothills of the rockies and this has been relatively unaffected by the oil sands, but, other exploration, sour gas wells, etc, has affected it over the last 20 years.
    The pipeline is my biggest concern.
     
  14. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

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    "82,000 acres disturbed".

    I guess the question is how much oil for that acreage. 82,000 acres is a fairly small area depending on output. I would much prefer fracking to development of the tar sands. Footprint is very important.

    For example in eastern Washington alone we have destroyed 136,000 acres with industrial wind areas.

    A rational discussion on energy policy is badly needed.

    I guess it is more fun to rant and rave about energy policy while driving everywhere.
     
  15. Stew McLeod

    Stew McLeod aka BigMac

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    Of the two (fracking and/or oil sands), fracking scares me more. Fracking/miscible floods and the like have been in play for years and used to extract the last vestiges of oil/gas from a site. Used to be used my small firms that would roll in after the Chevrons and such leave. Now the big guys are giving it more of a shot I guess.

    Maybe I am over simplifying it, but developing the oil sands results in a big hole in the ground and the loss of a bunch of energy to generate steam to separate the oil (bitumen) from the sand. Fracking/misible floods mean injecting high pressure liquids into the ground where results are not visible and not always predicted correctly (i.e. contaminating underground water sources).

    My rants.

    Stew ... 'Mac ...
     
  16. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

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    My concern with tar sands is removal of the "overburden". ANd then the restoration of the surface ecosystem.

    Fracking to me occurs at such depth that I don't worry to much about it.

    However, I know some things on the subject,but have not followed professionally.
     
  17. Steffan Brown

    Steffan Brown ...

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    Anyone read 'Heart of the Monster' by David James Duncan yet? I just started it and so far it just seems like a manifesto on why transporting mining equipment from Korea, through the NW, to the tar sands is going to be bad for traffic across rural Idaho, Montana and Washington. Seems like a waste of paper to me, but I'll give it a few more pages to turn around into something more meaningful.
     
  18. jwg

    jwg Active Member

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    The size of this reserve of oil cannot be ignored. Enough for another 2 or 3 hundred years.

    One problem is it takes alot of energy to separate the oil from the sands. the second is that the yeild is not that efficient, I think about 65%.

    In my opinion both of these issues can and will be improved by technology development.

    the ponds left behind raise alot of issues so studies are being done on the microbial communities and their effects on the bioavailability of toxic metals and other transformations that can be bad or good environmentally.

    Loss of land is an obvious eyesore but needs to be in perspective of the area involved.

    Use of fossil fuels and the resulting CO2 and climate change are major issues but are not specific to oil sands. Hard to see how we will wean ourselves off of fossil fuels.

    Personally, I find fracking more treacherous due to the degradation of water resources that could occur, and because drilling and injecting waste water and chemicals creates a situation you cannot clean up later if it turns out badly. Also the scale of the water resources put at risk, with fracking going on over such an area.

    I would worry less about fracking only if they were not reinjecting so much waste water and chemicals.

    Jay
     
  19. mdjm66

    mdjm66 Member

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    Fracking is bad news, I am not sure if all of you are aware of where the tar sands are located?
    Its pretty much in the middle of nowhere, the only reason there is a town there is because of the tar sands.
    People who work up there are from other countries (including china) as well as other depressed economies in different parts of the country.
    There are 0 vacancy rates, lots of alchohol and drug abuse and people get paid a crapload of money. Imagine getting paid almost $20/hr to work at McDonalds.

    There is so much traffic going up there now that they have twinned a road that used be a two lane gravel road for 200 miles.
     
  20. Robert Engleheart

    Robert Engleheart Robert

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    "Personally, I find fracking more treacherous due to the degradation of water resources that could occur, and because drilling and injecting waste water and chemicals creates a situation you cannot clean up later if it turns out badly. Also the scale of the water resources put at risk, with fracking going on over such an area."

    Word x 2