Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by James Waggoner, Jan 7, 2012.

  1. Whats the definition of insanity again?
  2. Gordon,

    see below that this is the reason you need to provide evidence before you point your finger to someone.


    The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi) is the obligation to shift the accepted conclusion away from an oppositional opinion to one's own position.
    The burden of proof is often associated with the Latin maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, the best translation of which seems to be: "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges."[1] This is a statement of a version of the presumption of innocence that underpins the assessment of evidence in some legal systems, and is not a general statement of when one takes on the burden of proof. The burden of proof tends to lie with anyone who is arguing against received wisdom, but does not always, as sometimes the consequences of accepting a statement or the ease of gathering evidence in its defense might alter the burden of proof to its proponents shoulder. The burden may also be assigned institutionally.
    He who does not carry the burden of proof carries the benefit of assumption, meaning he needs no evidence to support his claim. Fulfilling the burden of proof effectively captures the benefit of assumption, passing the burden of proof off to another party. However the incidence of burden of proof is affected by common law, statute and procedure.
  3. Thanks Steve,

    It is important! It's about Goran Andersson's name and reputation. For myself? I don't care... I would love to learn from Gordon...true from my heart.

    I am sorry that you can't understand my English... I am improving it for sure, I hope you can tell I try very hard to make my points simple and clear. This argument is all about rationale and logic, at least this is the best I can do now... so please bear on me.

  4. I don't think anybody is discrediting Goran, Mark. I think Inland said things pretty well. In all likelihood, Mr. Andersson developed his stroke and style all by himself, possibly without knowledge of the techniques that Grant, Rupp, or other nameless anglers of old had employed. When Goran speaks of inventing it, I take that as him saying he came upon it himself, in, he was not taught it, nor had he observed it from other anglers around him. This should not be confused with the assumption that the things he found worked for him had never ever been used by other anglers at other times in other places. This is not a discredit to Goran. He is by all accounts, a master. He refined his method and brought it to the masses. Just because someone else, in a galaxy far far away:clown:, had done many of the same things, does not mean we are discrediting Goran.

    edit: now i see Inland has removed his comment,...not that I blame him. I may do the same in a few minutes. Anyways, nice to see some videos and diagrams back on the spey forum;), it was such a long February.
  5. Brady,

    If this is Gordon's intention. I agree with you and I apologize for saying he is trying to discredit Goran Andersson. I agree many things can develop at different places on the same time independently. Only themselves know if they are the inventor or not. We only can gather pieces of information and put them together to figure out who is the first one to promote the idea and popularized the idea if the origin is no longer to be traced. That is the reason, I think Gordon have the responsibility to provide evidence for the public before he said Underhand Technique is the same thing as the underhand casting. If people still remember we are arguing "Underhand technique". This also is the very reason that I sincere urge Gordon to explain his view of underhand casting in general... by doing this way, we can figure out where is the misunderstanding and where is the credit should go to... either Underhand Casting or Underhand Technique. Next time when Gordon says, "there is really nothing new in spey casting" I will try to read it as broad and as relax as possible

  6. Yuhina,

    Public apology for my uncontrolled outburst. I have a thing about effective communication, and when I see what I think is a communication breakdown, well that's what I should have said. I sent a PM.

  7. used to be some folks just stayed in their houses with piles of newspapers and dozens of cats, but now...
    we have The Legend.
    Channeling GA, no less! While GA is still alive!
    I think we have reached a new level of unique thought here.
    I am frankly entranced.

    Mark, I am your humble servant. I kneel at your feet.
    Teach me, Master, I beseech you!:rofl:
  8. Steve,

    Thanks for the kind message. As you point out there are several lessons for me. I do really appreciate it! Will move toward that direction and I totally agree with you that some miscommunications were become burdens between our discussion. I will try to improve it next time.
  9. Excellent post friend.
  10. I climb up onto the top of this slash pile, look around, and realize someone's missing.

    James! James Waggoner! The guy who started this thread! check in buddy. Did your B&W Powerlite arrive yet?

    I remember several guys were having a good ol' time, posting up clips of ourselves and getting polite and insightful feedback from guys who really know their stuff, and we were posting back on progress we had made, and a good time was being had by all.
  11. Hello All.
    Just got in from work, and i say lets get back to the post James made, i am as much to blame for the pissin match but i asure everybody in no way was i trying to discredit a fine Speycaster and Gentleeman Goran sure is.
    Now, James! James Waggoner! The guy who started this thread! check in buddy. Did your B&W Powerlite arrive yet?

    I sent a DTX rod to a Pro Guide in BC and it has yet to arrive, i hope your B@W does'nt take as long James.
    Cheers Gordon.
    DTX Pro Staff.
  12. Hey! Got home today and found a new rod in my living room, it's a beauty! I'll be on the river tomorrow giving it a whirl.

    I'll report back with the results.

    It's a beautiful for the first time in my life I'm actually thinking I need to tape a rod together, it just looks powerful! Yet, surprising light.

  13. Hey James, what line are you planning on casting with the new stick?

  14. Well to start a Carron 75' Jetstream 10/11 with and without tips. Mumbles lent me a line that I'm going to try too.
  15. A couple of differences I noticed right off about this rod that I've never seen in a US Two Hand Rod:

    Hook Keeper - Okay, looked funny at first, but that's so very practical. Only looked funny because I don't own a DH rod with one.
    Ferrel connection - Not only wraps on the female portion but also on the male side. I can only imagine this makes the rod stronger at the connection.
    Stripper Guide position - A good foot lower than the usual. I'll let you know how I feel about it when I cast it.

    Three Piece rod - Not really differnt just never had one...three 5' sections...I need a new rod and reel cast!

  16. Hi James,
    Sounds good and i am sure you will have fun with the new rod, they do make great rods.
    Please remember that the rod will be rated for UK lines, so you may need to go a line weight heavier than US rated lines, but most now are done in grain weight, sometimes the line can feel a little light for the rod.
    The Carron line wil be a breeze on that rod.
    Thanks Gordon.
    DTX Pro Staff.
  17. That Carron 10/11 being a next generation line should be dead on for that rod
  18. Well here is my new rod casting report:

    Rod is very different than anything I have and am used to, but it has exceptional power and feels pretty good. Timing and tempo are so very cruicial...too fast is a real "no no" or should I say "NO-GO"!
    All I know is my Sages and Guidelines are very forgiving compared to this rod. Though it's got a tight sweet spot it is truly sweet when you hit it. I can say without hesitation, I love this rod and know through use I'll be a better caster because of it.

    I'll write up some more after somemore practice. And post up some video once I find my camera.

  19. Overline it and it will become sweeter. B&W knows how to make great rods but we in the US tend to underline... nearly everything. Load it up and watch the line roll out.

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