Casting!

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by James Waggoner, Jan 7, 2012.

  1. SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Posts: 1,825
    Roy, WA
    Ratings: +13 / 0
    Talk about rediscovering the wheel.
    I just got out yesterday with a 15' rod and a multitip Delta, easily tossing a 4" leadeye bunny on a 14' sinktip all day long...
    Easier and more efficient than casting a short head all day, I just had to actually pay attention when casting, instead of going into "winter autohucking mode". Grin
  2. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    Spaz, I agree easier and more efficent. It was this line that really got me thinking longer belly. Even thought it's only 50' - 55' it was still long enough to help me realize the benefits of a system other than skagit. I've never been a tosser of the real heavy junk, so hucking car keys has never been a criteria I needed to meet in a line system. Casting to 70 to 80' without stripping was a benefit worth looking into.

    James.
  3. speyghillie speyghillie

    Posts: 180
    River Spey Scotland
    Ratings: +20 / 0
    Hi All,
    Just wanted to add that a long time ago in the days of Greenheart rods a Switch cast was a fishing cast with change of direction, not as we know it now, in fact a Highland switch cast was used to cast huge distances without the need to strip in any line,much more than we can lift and cast nowadays, in those days a Switch rod was the longest of all double-handed rods, they even had rods with a curve in them for fishing close to the bank and trees.
    Thanks Gordon.
    DTX Pro Staff.
  4. Greg Holt Active Member

    Posts: 154
    camano island, wa.
    Ratings: +54 / 0
    Good stuff, Gordon--thanks.

    Keeps ya' humble, knowing everything wasn't discovered in the last 30 minutes, and all this terminology we toss around needs context to be clear.
    Greg
  5. speyghillie speyghillie

    Posts: 180
    River Spey Scotland
    Ratings: +20 / 0
    Hi Greg,
    Well they argued about casting styles way back then too, this style that style, shooting heads long belly and multi tip lines, all argued about.
    So nothing really has changed.
    Cheers Gordon.
    DTX Pro Staff.
  6. Klickrolf Active Member

    Posts: 596
    Klickitat, Washington
    Ratings: +165 / 0
    Thanks for the posts Gordon. Off topic here but I couldn't resist after you mentioned the curved rods. I have an old spliced joint 15' greenheart rod with 2 tips and one of them has a very very distinct curve to it, more than one would think could have been caused by age etc. Well now I'm thinking it might have been made intentionally with the curve. Could you elaborate a bit on how one would identify such a rod? Was the entire rod curved or just the tip section. Any information would be useful and informative. Thanks for your wonderful input!!
  7. Greg Holt Active Member

    Posts: 154
    camano island, wa.
    Ratings: +54 / 0
    ...they even had rods with a curve in them for fishing close to the bank and trees"...


    I read somewhere that the personal physician to Louis XIV noticed a particular deformity in the reproductive equipment of the King, and named it Peyronie's disease, so perhaps the Scots didn't actually invent the curved rod. Makes me wonder if he was a fisherman...
  8. Klickrolf Active Member

    Posts: 596
    Klickitat, Washington
    Ratings: +165 / 0
    I'm sure King Louis XIV was a fisherman, or should have been. We have progressed to lighter, but not much longer based on Mr. Grant's achievements. I do apologize for asking Gordon about curved rods... So...back to the topic of long lines.

    To this day I probably wouldn't use a spey rod if it weren't for added casting distance...but somewhere in the pursuit I found the obvious additional benefits. So, fishing a long/short spey rod with the longest line I can handle remains my objective. I'll add the weight to the fly or the tip but if I can't cast it long why would I bother. To me spey casting is about distance and the other bennies are welcome...but not necessary. The long cast "IS" king and I think/hope we all know it.

    Long lines are what speycasting is about. Keep the faith James, you're making good progress as I hope we all are!!
  9. speyghillie speyghillie

    Posts: 180
    River Spey Scotland
    Ratings: +20 / 0
    Sorry for the off topic, but it was only the tip section that was curved,........ brass ferrules.
    Gordon.
    DTX Pro Staff.
  10. Klickrolf Active Member

    Posts: 596
    Klickitat, Washington
    Ratings: +165 / 0
    You weren't off topic Gordon...but I was. Your input is greatly appreciated and I am not at all surprised that these "new" ideas are not new at all. Maybe we'll end up seeing a curved graphite tip section? We've already seen the Zpey lower grip!!
  11. yuhina Tropical member

    Posts: 2,320
    Boston-Idaho
    Ratings: +43 / 0
    Klickrolf,

    You might want to check out a book called THE SALMON FLY 1895 by George M. Kelson. He mentioned the curve tip rods in his book and provide some explanations see below chapter images.

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    Mark
  12. Greg Holt Active Member

    Posts: 154
    camano island, wa.
    Ratings: +54 / 0
    Klickrolf,

    A random thought on curved rod design:

    You'd have to begin with naturally curved bamboo which possessed a compression side and a tension side.

    I imagine the more accomplished of the old casters would have been savvy enough to spey cast a curved rod effectively by rotating it in such a fashion and moment so as to keep the belly of the rod's curve facing away from the direction of the thrust--keeping the "bow" flexed against the "arrow".

    I've had to do this with several older grass rods that naturally possessed a "strong" and "weak" side, or had acquired a bow by virtue of a life of hard work, and it did add somewhat to achieved casting distance at the expense of a good deal of effort.

    Hey, it works on atlatls, where the fibres of the throwing stick are under tension on one side and compressed on the other...

    Sorry James, treat this post as the non-serious diversion it's intended to be.
  13. Klickrolf Active Member

    Posts: 596
    Klickitat, Washington
    Ratings: +165 / 0
    ...must have been wrong.
  14. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    Klick, did you ever figure out how to post up some video? I'd sure like to see you thowing the long line and see what we can gleen. AS far as how, I upload to the vimeo site and then paste the link in the post...others may use another site. I've been pretty busy so haven't been able to get to a body of water. I did make it to the lake for about 30mins of casting. Flat water is very helpful, as Greg and others have mentioned to me, it demonstates the importance of a good lift and a straight line, as the squiggles and curls equal slack. All slack needs to be over come, so the flat water is a great way to teach me to be sure I'm at complete dangle and have a smooth lift.

    Lesson learned: Fast water disguises this casting flaw and in effects beats the slack for you and what it doesn't remove bad habits develop to correct.

    Thanks all for the tip!

    James.
  15. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    FYI: there is a thread going on titled "Need Critic About Casting" in the "Casting Video" forum on Speypages, that is very informative. It has a short video of a man demonstartaing a handful of casts and some responses from certified instructors. Check it out, I'm sure you'll gleen something new and informative.

    James
  16. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    So, I got my hands on the Nextcast Winterauthority 70 (8/9). I tried it with the floating tip, seemed to cast pretty well, I then tried it with a Rio 8wt 15' tip (Type 3) and it was awesome! Next I tried it with an intruder...no go, okay it would cast but not real well. I then went to a smaller unweighted fly and it was bombs away again. So What gives? My feeling is the tip is too heavy and the added intruder just put it over the top...my experience is that a tip lighter than that won't turn over an average size intruder, perhaps the higher line speed will help overcome this? I'll have to experiment.

    By the way I was using it on a 14'3 8/9/10 Burkhiemer rod.

    Any ideas?

    James.
  17. Dan Page Active Member

    Posts: 443
    Yelm, Wa., USA.
    Ratings: +33 / 0
    Been using that same setup only the 9/10 on my Highlander. I like the 8/9 FF 70 for dry line, but like the extra mass the 9/10 provides for throwing heavier tips and bigger flies. I've not enjoyed throwing bigger flies--Intruder size or bigger rabbit on this setup. I stick to less bulkey flies made to look bulkey.
    There is a reason the inventor of the Intruder also developed Skagit heads and the sustained anchor cast.:)
  18. Klickrolf Active Member

    Posts: 596
    Klickitat, Washington
    Ratings: +165 / 0
    Is an intruder automatically heavier? What about an intruder tied sparce. Realize the profile seems to catch extra air but couldn't it be done with a lighter sparcer fly, rabbit is a bad water absorber.
  19. Dan Page Active Member

    Posts: 443
    Yelm, Wa., USA.
    Ratings: +33 / 0
    All I know is big flies don't cast easy for me. Spey flies on 1.5 AJ's or similar work good for me. You can make them look pretty bulkey without much weight. Air resistance is much of it I think. Getting it unplugged easy is another thing as well.
  20. James Waggoner Active Member

    Posts: 776
    wa
    Ratings: +40 / 0
    I know I can easily cast the same fly on 45'ish DDC on my 8/9wt, but that is more like a skagit with the load concentrated within a short head. Sounds like I'll have to start, researching long line winter strategies, instead of trying to employ skagit expectations to the long line....things such as tube flies and back to the classics, skunks, spades and spey flies.

    AS a side note: Today was my first experience with a Burkhiemer rod...totally different then what I'm used to. Very much different then my Zaxis rods, B&W or Guidelines, but more like my Highlander for sure. I now know what the Burkhiemer buzz was and is all about!

    James.